[TheForge] new shed design and other ramblings

Wed Apr 15 11:21:43 EDT 2009

I think it really depends on if you want to work with the tools, or  
work ON the tools.
If your primary goal is to work with 3phase equipment, to make stuff,  
there is no doubt it will be cheaper and easier in the long run to  
just pay edison what they ask.
If, on the other hand, you enjoy puttering with tools and power  
systems as an end in itself, then, by all means, use the generator.
Just be aware of what you are doing.

Generators work, and are used all the time, in situations where there  
is no utility power. But it is not hard to see that any business that  
is actually concerned with production and profit pays the hookup fee.
Generators require maintenance,  fuel, oversight, and expensive  
rebuilds, usually when you can least afford the time and money. I have  
a friend who runs a tender in Alaska- he has a half dozen Detroit  
Diesels on it, running generators, as well as propulsion. He has  
become an expert on rebuilding em, and stocks more repair parts on his  
boat than most engine repair shops. But out in Bristol Bay, extension  
cords are not an option. So he copes, but he never fools himself into  
thinking its a cheap or easy, or very reliable way to produce power.

If this thing is as old as you say- what are the repair parts  
availability?
How much time, every day, are you prepared to devote to the care and  
feeding of a generator?
How much time do you have to troubleshoot, reinvent, and repair  
complicated power generation systems that are unique to you- meaning  
no online manuals, no off the shelf parts, no calling a repairman?

If you are willing to live with that stuff, then you will be fine.

Me, I tend to focus on the actual making of metalwork in my shop. So I  
want machines that work when my employees flick the switch. I want to  
be able to make a phone call, and have repair parts sent out fed-ex  
that day. And I find that utility supplied 3 phase is remarkably cheap  
for the work it does. Yes, there are often demand charges, and you  
need to size your equipment and figure out your workloads accordingly.
And, in some cases, its a lot cheaper to spend $2500 on a good  
commercial phase converter, and NOT get utility 3 phase.
But I sincerley doubt you can produce electricity cheaper than Edison  
can, if you are honest, and figure in all the costs of owning and  
maintaining a generator.

Most likely, what will happen is you will have a lot of downtime, and  
just not use your tools as much.

Daryl Meier, for example, has a HUGE generator to run his big rolling  
mill. Its so big, cranky, and complicated to keep running that he  
barely uses it- so yes, he saves on power costs, but he doesnt use the  
tool much, either.
It sure looks cool, though- its about as big as  a VW microbus.

Ries

On Apr 14, 2009, at 9:57 PM, terry l. ridder wrote:

hello bruce;

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Bruce Freeman wrote:

> Terry,
> I'm picking up on the 3-phase power requirement.
> You use an engine to generate power which you then use to power  
> motors.
> Very convenient, but not efficient.
>

the generator is a spare from one of the ships. been a spare for at
least 10 years. looks like the day it came out of the factory. was
protected by layers of grease and linen cloth. took a while to get it
cleaned up.

>
> How about a modification of the old line-shaft idea.  Run an engine
> and power the tools more-or-less directly from it.  I know this
> conjures up visions of 4" iron shafts and bearings, and big flat-belt
> pulleys everywhere, but that was only one implementation of the idea.
>

this is similar to my other idea. hydraulic motors driving basically
pto's. i have two tractors with cat 1 hitches and 540 rpm ptos. i like
the ability to swap out different implements that use the tractor's pto
to provide power. so far i have a 3pt hitch post hole digger, a reverse
rotation tiller, a finishing mower. i am working on a boom crane for the
3pt hitch. the same could be done in the shop. why should everything
have its own electric motor or diesel/gas/propane/natural gas/alcohol
engine when they are able to share a single power plant or perhaps
several power plants. the pto with drive shafts is my current idea.
still working on the design and layout. this is not set in stone. this
idea may or may not be implemented. time will tell.

>
> You could use scrap driveshafts from trucks or cars, and use the
> differentials as variable-speed output points.
> Just brainstorming here.
> Best of luck.
>

thank you for the ideas and the wishes.

>
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 5:52 PM, terry l. ridder <terrylr at blauedonau.com 
> > wrote:
>> hello;
>>
>> i am attempting to build an environmentally friendly shop. i would  
>> like
>> to keep the carbon footprint for the shop as small as possible. i am
>> trying to use recycled materials in building the shed to being with.
>>
>> i am looking at either producing all the 3-phase electrical power  
>> that i
>> would need for the shop using a marine diesel 3-phase 240 volt  
>> generator
>> or cut back on power requirements and produce the electricity using
>> solar panels on the shed roof and a wind turbine. i have the marine
>> diesel all ready i would have to purchase the solar panels and wind
>> turbine. i have not reached a final decision on the electrical  
>> system.
>>
>> i would like to have the new shed off grid if at all possible. that  
>> way
>> i am able to control the cost of producing the electricity for the  
>> shed.
>> i have looked at the commonwealth edison offer and it is just loaded
>> with fees and charges. there is the metering charge, distribution
>> facilities charge, transmission services charge, electricity supply
>> charge, purchased electricity adjustment charge, environmental cost
>> recovery adjustment, energy efficiency programs charge, etc. there is
>> even a charge is i do not use the 3-phase equipment often enough.
>>
>> if i include the cost of the equipment to produce the 3-phase  
>> electrical
>> power it is clear that i would not break even for many years.
>>
>> i am looking at putting radiant heat in the concrete portion of the  
>> new
>> shed floor. the heating system will be a wood/coal boiler/stove. i  
>> have
>> not decided on just how the new shed will be cooled or even if it  
>> will
>> be cooled. i may go with the new generation of spot coolers to cool  
>> the
>> location of the shed where creature comforts are required.
>>
>> i have looked at the ground water heating and cooling systems but the
>> requirement for using a double walled heat exchanger is a killer. i  
>> can
>> understand the need to protect the ground water from contamination  
>> put
>> there are other ways to do that other than using a double wall heat
>> exchanger. a double walled heat exchanger is twice as large as a  
>> single
>> wall heat exchanger.
>>
>>
>> --
>> terry l. ridder ><>
>

-- 
terry l. ridder ><>
______________________________________________________________
TheForge mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:TheForge at mailman.qth.net

TheForge mail list group photo site is
http://www.photoaccess.com
Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
Password: anvil

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Ries Niemi
Industrial Artist
http://www.riesniemi.com/