OT RE: [TheForge] Re: TheForge Digest, Vol 56, Issue 19
Washington, Aubrey O.
awashington at ou.edu
Wed Sep 10 14:44:15 EDT 2008
Thanks, James. Good information.
Aubrey
________________________________________
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net [theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Cindy and James [jallcorn at suddenlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 1:12 PM
To: theforge at mailman.qth.net
Subject: [TheForge] Re: TheForge Digest, Vol 56, Issue 19
There is more on this site than you want to know about goats and goat
nutrition, care, etc. Now ADM, it used to be Moorman Mfg. Co and made
very high quality animal feeds, mostly supplements and minerals.
http://www.admani.com/AllianceGoat/Goat%20Nutrition.htm
James
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Movable fencing for Goats (OT) (Bruce Freeman)
> 2. Re: Re: Top of a Broken Anvil (Bruce Freeman)
> 3. Re: Re: Top of a Broken Anvil (Chuck Robinson)
> 4. Re: Re: Top of a Broken Anvil (dann at wctatel.net)
> 5. Re: Movable fencing for Goats (OT) (dann at wctatel.net)
> 6. Re: Re: OT Goats (Jerry Frost)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> [TheForge] Movable fencing for Goats (OT)
> From:
> "Bruce Freeman" <freemab222 at gmail.com>
> Date:
> Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:40:51 -0400
> To:
> "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>
> To:
> "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>
>
> Sheep were traditionally fenced in movable enclosures created with
> hurdles. Traditional hurdles are woven from ~1" branches and small
> "wythies", and have a hole in the center so you can put a bunch of
> them on a stick and carry the lot. On either side, the post can be
> jabbed into the ground, but they are by no means sunk in the ground.
> I suspect adjacent hurdles were secured together, but I don't know
> that for a fact or how it would be done.
>
> It seems to me that much the same effect could be achieved using
> modern materials (that the goats can't eat). Best materials:
> Anything lightweight that comes to hand.
>
> Folks around here throw away aluminum-framed chairs all the time (and
> at one point I collected them up because the metal is good for
> casting). The chair frames would make a good start toward hurdle
> frames, and the holes for the springs, etc., could be the start of the
> "weaving". These would be even lighter weight than wood/wythie
> hurdles and easy to carry. They could even be made quite pretty, with
> a little forethought. Of course, wythie hurdles are inherently pretty
> by today's standards.
>
> If you want wythies, find an area full of willows, or other suitable
> species, and cut the sapling trees severely - like to a foot or less
> from the ground - probably just before the growing season commences.
> You'll get "watershoots" or "wythies" in quantity. This was formerly
> a regular practice in parts of England that wove baskets, etc.
> Prunings from fruit orchards will work too.
>
> If you get serious about wythie hurdles, I can provide detailed
> information on their construction.
>
> Bruce
> NJ
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 5:40 AM, Ruuf <ruuf at slingshot.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> I can't see your fencing idea working for more than a week or two, as it is
>> quite time consuming and a hassle moving fencing all the time, especially
>> where the ground is hard.
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [TheForge] Re: Top of a Broken Anvil
> From:
> "Bruce Freeman" <freemab222 at gmail.com>
> Date:
> Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:01:17 -0400
> To:
> blakkpawss at yahoo.com, "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA"
> <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>
> To:
> blakkpawss at yahoo.com, "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA"
> <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> CC:
>
>
> Torching it in half for recycling makes sense. If this was around
> WWII, that might have been exactly what happened. Perhaps your
> grandfather recognized the top as wrought iron and save it as such.
>
> If you're a member of a blacksmithing group, you might suggest holding
> an anvil repair workshop. For a fee, folks bring their damaged anvils
> and repairs are made. To fix your half-anvil might be out of the
> question, but filling holes in a horn is relatively easy. The process
> is to preheat the anvils in a wood fire (monitoring temperature with a
> Tempil crayon so you don't ruin the temper), then using a "fill" wire
> or rod to repair the deep "wounds" and some sort of hard or hardenable
> rod or wire to repair the plate. I'm not a welder, but if you need
> details, we have several on the list who've done such repairs. Such a
> workshop is pretty easy if you have enough weldors, welders, and
> grunts, and is best scheduled in mid-Summer so you don't have to
> preheat the anvils or the workers so much. (That's a joke, boy,
> that's a joke!)
>
> Bruce
> NJ
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Barnhart <blakkpawss at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> >From what I remember it looks like it was cut with a torch. Unless it was trimmed a bit to make it easier to repair after it broke, I'd have to say it was cut. For what reason I don't know. Maybe some idiot was cutting it up to make it easier to recycle as scrap. I personally have no idea why anyone would cut up an anvil for any reason(even a crappy cast iron one doesn't deserve such treatment). I do own a 35lb. cast iron Vulcan anvil that a previous owner used for drilling things. They laid out things on the horn and drilled through them into the horn. The horn is riddled with holes. I thought I might fill it with iron welding rod, but then I got my 70 lb. Kohlswa. So, I just let it go.
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 9/10/08, A Vida <osan at netlabs.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> From: A Vida <osan at netlabs.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Re: Top of a Broken Anvil
>>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 8:28 AM
>>> It just occurred to me that many Trentons were of 2 piece
>>> construction -
>>> the top half wrought iron and the bottom half mild steel.
>>> These were
>>> electrically welded at the waist. My friend Marshall has
>>> one like this.
>>> Great anvil, but the weld is a possible failure point. If
>>> the welder
>>> was having a bad day, a job may have been botched, yet look
>>> OK and pass
>>> QC. Perhaps this is what happened here?
>>>
>>> is there any evidence of failed electrical welds?
>>>
>>>
>>> Jerry Frost wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only thing that might cause a problem would be
>>>>
>>> silica/slag
>>>
>>>> inclusions but I don't know how much problem
>>>>
>>> it'd be.
>>>
>>>> Frosty
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>> If it ain't forged
>>>> it ain't real.
>>>> Wrought iron is.
>>>> The FrostWorks
>>>>
>>>> Meadow Lakes, AK.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: "dan tull" <dantull at numail.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The bottom should be wrought and soft for
>>>>>
>>> drilling.
>>>
>>>>> Only the top 1/2" of plate is steel.
>>>>>
>>>>>> As to drilling it, I'm not sure that I
>>>>>>
>>> have anything heavy enough to
>>>
>>>>>> drill it out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>> theforge mail list group photo site is
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>>>> password: anvil
>>>> ___________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [TheForge] Re: Top of a Broken Anvil
> From:
> "Chuck Robinson" <robi5515 at bellsouth.net>
> Date:
> Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:03:55 -0500
> To:
> <blakkpawss at yahoo.com>, "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA"
> <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>
> To:
> <blakkpawss at yahoo.com>, "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA"
> <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> CC:
>
>
> Hey Jonathan,
> Reading this thread I couldn't tell if this is a cast steel anvil, or
> a wrought iron base welded to a steel top plate.
> If you send me cloes up pictures of the top, side and the bottom of
> what you have, I might be able to advise you how to repair it.
> You also should clean off the anvil surface with a flap wheel and then
> do a drop test with a 1" ball bearing.
> Be advised that the chances of doing a good restoration without
> having machining and heat treating capabilities are remote, but any
> anvil is better than none at all.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Barnhart"
> <blakkpawss at yahoo.com>
> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Re: Top of a Broken Anvil
>
>
>> Nope, my Grandpa would be the only one to know anything about it, if
>> anyone did. But, he passed away last summer. Grandpa was kind of a
>> jack of all trades with no formal education or instruction. He could
>> weld, cut, layout projects, rebuild tractors and implements, built
>> his own truck one time out of two differant trucks, worked as a
>> carpenter. If he needed something he made it. For many years he
>> scavenged things from junkyards, auctions, and contruction sites(many
>> of these he was working on at the time). So this may have been
>> something he brought home and even might not have known why it was
>> cut in half. At some point he took up an interest in blacksmithing
>> to make some tools and I assume that he either had this and hauled it
>> out to use or that he found this while trying to gather some tools to
>> use. Besides this anvil top, I've found a small forge made out of an
>> old steel wheel for the firepot, steel pipe for the legs, and an old
>> hand crank
>> blower. I think he made some oversized bore bits to drill holes in
>> the telephone poles that we used all ove the farm for gate posts in
>> fences and structural posts in our barns and sheds.
>>
>> As to drilling it, I'm not sure that I have anything heavy enough to
>> drill it out.
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Brian Reedy <lfpd7311 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Brian Reedy <lfpd7311 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [TheForge] Re: Top of a Broken Anvil
>>> To: theforge at mailman.qth.net
>>> Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 9:23 AM
>>> Excuse me for my ignorance, but is there anyone in your
>>> family that
>>> remembers why the anvil was cut in half in the first place?
>>> Also, it seems
>>> to me that tapping a few holes in the bottom, inserting
>>> some all thread
>>> (with loctite just in case) and sinking the rods into
>>> fiberglass reinforced
>>> concrete would be quite a suitable base. Failing that, you
>>> could taper a
>>> few pieces of half inch round stock on one end, bore holes
>>> into the under
>>> side of your anvil and weld the rods into place. Then
>>> drill matching holes
>>> into a tree stump and drive the whole thing into the stump.
>>> Sure, it's
>>> gonna weigh a ton, but it's lighter than concrete and
>>> the wood will help
>>> with rebound where the concrete would probably absorb it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> __________
>>> Brian Reedy
>>> LFPD--7311
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
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>>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>> password: anvil
>>> ___________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> password: anvil
>> ___________
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [TheForge] Re: Top of a Broken Anvil
> From:
> dann at wctatel.net
> Date:
> Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:55:44 -0500 (CDT)
> To:
> blakkpawss at yahoo.com, "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA"
> <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>
> To:
> blakkpawss at yahoo.com, "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA"
> <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> CC:
>
>
>
> Of all the writings on this subject, I like Jerry Frost's idea best.
>
> Drilling, tapping and threading long bolts / ready-rod into the bottom of
> the anvil.
> I think he also wrote about adding some re-rod, and then pouring a new
> base from concrete.
>
> Making a discarded old tool work, makes me feel good about myself.
> So if the anvil top becomes a working anvil again... wonderful. If it
> kind- of- works and you get a year or three of use out of it, then it
> probably paid for the time. If it doesn't work, you gain something in the
> effort. I've paid for a lot of education after finishing college.
>
> Dann
>
>
>
>> >From what I remember it looks like it was cut with a torch. Unless it
>>
>>> was trimmed a bit to make it easier to repair after it broke, I'd have to
>>> say it was cut. For what reason I don't know. Maybe some idiot was
>>> cutting it up to make it easier to recycle as scrap. I personally have
>>> no idea why anyone would cut up an anvil for any reason(even a crappy
>>> cast iron one doesn't deserve such treatment). I do own a 35lb. cast
>>> iron Vulcan anvil that a previous owner used for drilling things. They
>>> laid out things on the horn and drilled through them into the horn. The
>>> horn is riddled with holes. I thought I might fill it with iron welding
>>> rod, but then I got my 70 lb. Kohlswa. So, I just let it go.
>>>
>> --- On Wed, 9/10/08, A Vida <osan at netlabs.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> From: A Vida <osan at netlabs.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Re: Top of a Broken Anvil
>>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 8:28 AM
>>> It just occurred to me that many Trentons were of 2 piece
>>> construction -
>>> the top half wrought iron and the bottom half mild steel.
>>> These were
>>> electrically welded at the waist. My friend Marshall has
>>> one like this.
>>> Great anvil, but the weld is a possible failure point. If
>>> the welder
>>> was having a bad day, a job may have been botched, yet look
>>> OK and pass
>>> QC. Perhaps this is what happened here?
>>>
>>> is there any evidence of failed electrical welds?
>>>
>>>
>>> Jerry Frost wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only thing that might cause a problem would be
>>>>
>>> silica/slag
>>>
>>>> inclusions but I don't know how much problem
>>>>
>>> it'd be.
>>>
>>>> Frosty
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>> If it ain't forged
>>>> it ain't real.
>>>> Wrought iron is.
>>>> The FrostWorks
>>>>
>>>> Meadow Lakes, AK.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: "dan tull" <dantull at numail.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The bottom should be wrought and soft for
>>>>>
>>> drilling.
>>>
>>>>> Only the top 1/2" of plate is steel.
>>>>>
>>>>>> As to drilling it, I'm not sure that I
>>>>>>
>>> have anything heavy enough to
>>>
>>>>>> drill it out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>>>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>>> password: anvil
>>>> ___________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>> password: anvil
>>> ___________
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> password: anvil
>> ___________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [TheForge] Movable fencing for Goats (OT)
> From:
> dann at wctatel.net
> Date:
> Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:36:52 -0500 (CDT)
> To:
> "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>
> To:
> "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>
>
> A few decades back, I remember reading Mother Earth News about a portable
> fencing. I think it was stiffened fence panels on with a couple of old
> lawn mower wheels in the corners. It was designed to be moved a couple
> times a day, if needed.
>
> The author picked up the unwheeled "front panel, walked forward a few
> yards and set it back down. Guess that would work provided the ground was
> basically level, so that the goats couldn't crawl out in some gully,
> underneath the panels, or provided that the person moving could lift the
> front movable panel over / above any shrub in the fresh graze.
>
> Goats are naturals for de-foresting: they do a heck of a good job getting
> rid of brush, so even if this worked to let them graze a zig sag path
> for future grazing of the horses, goats, it might still be a win.
>
> dann
>
>
>> Sheep were traditionally fenced in movable enclosures created with
>> hurdles. Traditional hurdles are woven from ~1" branches and small
>> "wythies", and have a hole in the center so you can put a bunch of
>> them on a stick and carry the lot. On either side, the post can be
>> jabbed into the ground, but they are by no means sunk in the ground.
>> I suspect adjacent hurdles were secured together, but I don't know
>> that for a fact or how it would be done.
>>
>> It seems to me that much the same effect could be achieved using
>> modern materials (that the goats can't eat). Best materials:
>> Anything lightweight that comes to hand.
>>
>> Folks around here throw away aluminum-framed chairs all the time (and
>> at one point I collected them up because the metal is good for
>> casting). The chair frames would make a good start toward hurdle
>> frames, and the holes for the springs, etc., could be the start of the
>> "weaving". These would be even lighter weight than wood/wythie
>> hurdles and easy to carry. They could even be made quite pretty, with
>> a little forethought. Of course, wythie hurdles are inherently pretty
>> by today's standards.
>>
>> If you want wythies, find an area full of willows, or other suitable
>> species, and cut the sapling trees severely - like to a foot or less
>> from the ground - probably just before the growing season commences.
>> You'll get "watershoots" or "wythies" in quantity. This was formerly
>> a regular practice in parts of England that wove baskets, etc.
>> Prunings from fruit orchards will work too.
>>
>> If you get serious about wythie hurdles, I can provide detailed
>> information on their construction.
>>
>> Bruce
>> NJ
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 5:40 AM, Ruuf <ruuf at slingshot.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>> I can't see your fencing idea working for more than a week or two, as it
>>> is
>>> quite time consuming and a hassle moving fencing all the time,
>>> especially
>>> where the ground is hard.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> password: anvil
>> ___________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [TheForge] Re: OT Goats
> From:
> "Jerry Frost" <akfrosty at mtaonline.net>
> Date:
> Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:50:46 -0800
> To:
> "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>
> To:
> "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>
>
> Portable fencing is pretty straight forward, we use ranch panels,
> they're 53" x 16' and work quite well for goats, even full sized ones.
> In the spring while the pasture is recovering the grass on the west
> side of the house is usually pretty lush early so we put the goats
> there in a portable pen. It takes maybe 15 minutes to move it to an
> uneaten piece of ground. We usually do this in the morning before
> bringing them out.
>
> Panels can also be made with chain link in 10' sections with simple
> cross pipes for feet. You see these on construction sites. Ranch
> panels are probably a lot cheaper though, especially if you have a
> Fleet Farm (Farm Fleet?) near by.
>
> As for goats being hard on fencing they're usually pretty docile as
> long as something isn't chasing them. For meat and brushing I
> recommend Boer wethers, they're particularly docile and VERY meaty.
> Mmmmmm.
>
> Shelter from the bad weather is important though it doesn't have to be
> fancy, an old utility or stock trailer you can tow around would be
> perfect. It would also make an excellent anchor for the fence panels
> and a way to move them easily.
>
> Basic veterinary care is important as well though foot care isn't as
> important when the animals in question are only going to be kept till
> fall then butchered. Regardless, knowing how to check, clean and trim
> hooves is a very good idea. Typically farriers trim goat hooves as
> well as horses and are usually happy to show the owner how. Seeing as
> there are horses involved already and that's my suggestion. The
> farrier will also be familiar with the warning signs of hoof problems.
>
> I don't know what you mean by drenching but it sounds like nutritional
> supplements. In the goat world "drenching" is the practice of giving
> them doses of vitamins, minerals and such. Nutradrench is commonly
> available from Jeffers, Animal Food Warehouse (more expensive) etc. or
> virtually any livestock supply. Then there's Probios and a couple
> others. In most cases it's pretty hard to overdose them.
>
> A good loose mineral is important as oppopsed to mineral licks which
> have way more salt than minerals. We use SweetLix which has a low salt
> content so the goats take all the minerals they need and don't stop
> short because they've had enough salt. Also, do NOT think sheep and
> goats have the same nutritional requirements, they're quite different.
> The or one of the biggest is copper requirements, barely life
> sustaining for a goat is near toxic for sheep so don't get fooled by
> sheep/goat minerals they're not too good for either.
>
> Goats require horse quality or better hay, nothing kills goats like
> bloating and a little mold is a fast bloater for goats. Clean water is
> a must of course but for as short a time as the kids are thinking of
> keeping them grain isn't going to be important till just before they
> go to the freezer. A few weeks to a month before you put a wrap on
> their careers take them off brushing duty and start feeding good hay
> and a little grain, easy on the corn you don't want FAT goats, you're
> just flushing any gamey taste caused by eating whatever.
>
> Frosty
> -------------------------------
> If it ain't forged
> it ain't real.
> Wrought iron is.
> The FrostWorks
>
> Meadow Lakes, AK.
>
>
> From: "Ruuf" <ruuf at slingshot.co.nz>
>
>
>
>> I can't see your fencing idea working for more than a week or two, as
>> it is quite time consuming and a hassle moving fencing all the time,
>> especially where the ground is hard. Electric strip grazing fencing
>> is bad enough. You also have to secure the goats while you move the
>> fencing and move their water and salt. Goats don't handle adverse
>> weather and may need some form of shelter, which may also need moving
>> too.
>>
>> No one has mentioned that Goats also need their feet checking fairly
>> regularly especially in wet areas, and may require drenching from
>> time to time. It can be difficult getting a drench specificially for
>> Goats. Drenches are usually given on the weight of the animal.
>> Rufus.
>>
>>
>
>
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