[TheForge] fire steels

Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer artgawk at thegrid.net
Thu May 15 18:01:08 EDT 2008 

I'm deeply concerned that Bruce may be pretty wrong (for the very first 
time) on this!...pf

Peter Hirst wrote:
> Yeah, I'm not so sure about that, either, Bruce.  Isn't the  the carbon 
> in the (mild) steel burning off  -- de-carburizing it -- as the iron 
> oxidizes?
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David E. Smucker" 
> <davesmucker at hotmail.com>
> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 11:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] fire steels
> 
> 
>> Are you sure Bruce, just because iron is burning doesn't mean it is 
>> somehow taking up carbon.  Explain the chemistry -- for it to burn 
>> doesn't there have to be excess O2?  Or is burning iron striping the O 
>> from CO.
>>
>> When burning or lancing steel the product I find are melted steel 
>> balls and red iron oxide.  When we cut up a large backup roll in my 
>> old day job (think tank trucks of liquid O2) the lancing generated a 
>> heavy cloud of red iron oxide.  I have never burned wrought or pure 
>> iron on the other hand.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Bruce Freeman" <freemab222 at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:40 AM
>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] fire steels
>>
>>> Even easier -- That piece of iron you burned in the forge while your
>>> brain was where it shouldn't be - that has absorbed enough carbon to
>>> be a striker.  Forge it into shape and  no need to use expensive
>>> steel.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>> NJ
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 3:29 AM, Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer
>>> <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
>>>> Predictability in a striker seems less than critical.
>>>> They could have soaked a thin pieces of iron in a reducing fire for 
>>>> a while
>>>> to make steel on the cheap i'd guess...pf
>>>>
>>>> Grant Marcoux wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It would hav ebeen the less-predictable blister steel as well!
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>>>>> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Peter Hirst
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 4:42 PM
>>>>> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] fire steels
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Didn't mean to suggest that wire was used in period, jus that I was 
>>>>> able
>>>>> to
>>>>> duplicate it that way.  It wasn't just general scarcity of steel in 
>>>>> the
>>>>> period, it was the particular circumstances of the colony in 1627. Way
>>>>> before the period of Williamsburg.  Essentially subsistence 
>>>>> conditions.
>>>>>  The
>>>>> amount of steel required for a single striker could steel a  large 
>>>>> axe or
>>>>> dozens of  strikers, at a time when labor was a lot more plentiful 
>>>>> than
>>>>> materials. The smith did not make his living at it.  Was literally 
>>>>> dirt
>>>>> poor
>>>>> like everyone else. It was a huge deal that the colony received its 
>>>>> first
>>>>> two head of cattle that year.  Imagine what a bit of steel was worth.
>>>>>
>>>>> Keziah
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "David E. Smucker" <davesmucker at hotmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:50 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] fire steels
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> While it is true that "steel" was valuable and somewhat scarce in the
>>>>>> 1600
>>>>>> and 1700 even harder to come by would be any form of high carbon 
>>>>>> wire.
>>>>>>  So
>>>>>> if "fire steels" in that time frame were steeled -- then the high 
>>>>>> carbon
>>>>>> steel was drawn down to a small form by hammer forging.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The invention of the slitting mill was I believe in 1752 and was the
>>>>>> precursor to the rolling mill.  It was first used on heave hammer 
>>>>>> iron
>>>>>> plate to produce iron bars.  Later used to produce iron nail rod from
>>>>>> hammer or rolled sheet.  Drawing of wire followed, but when Eli 
>>>>>> Whitney
>>>>>> was working on his invention of the cotton gin 1793 he had to make 
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> draw bench to draw high carbon wire because he could not purchase it.
>>>>>>  (At
>>>>>> least in the then USA).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All of this is to say is that getting "small" section steel was a 
>>>>>> labor
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> love in the 1600's and first half of the 1700's.  High carbon 
>>>>>> "blister"
>>>>>> steel had been around for some time at this point and files made from
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> tool steel were very important in the manufacture of all types of
>>>>>> equipment. Spring steel for clock making also drove technology in 
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> time frame.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the most interesting parts about talking to the Williamsburg
>>>>>> Blacksmiths at the BAM conference was the discussion about the pay 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> role of craft workers in the colonial time period and early USA.  By
>>>>>> world
>>>>>> standards they were highly paid.  They did mostly repair and 
>>>>>> special work
>>>>>> that earned them this high pay.  Production work was imported from
>>>>>> England
>>>>>> and the continent were labor costs were much lower.  Why the high 
>>>>>> pay --
>>>>>> because in the Americas they could own land, and owning land was the
>>>>>> route
>>>>>> to wealth.  In England there was no land for them to own, no route to
>>>>>> wealth, a good supply of craftsman's so their earning were lower.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lesson to be learned -- blacksmiths should charge as much for 
>>>>>> their work
>>>>>> today as plumbers and electricians.  It is the story of supply and
>>>>>> demand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> From: "osan" <osan at netlabs.net>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 4:16 PM
>>>>>> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" 
>>>>>> <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] fire steels
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Hirst wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry , thought the reason was clear:  steel was extremely scarce,
>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>> the wire was a conservation measure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   OK, I could see this... at least in circumstances anyhow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   -Andy
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Bruce
>>> NJ
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> 
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