[TheForge] jobs OT OT OT
Peter Fels & Phoebe Palmer
artgawk at thegrid.net
Sat Jun 14 02:21:16 EDT 2008
One small correction Peter;
The intelligence services presently estimate that Al Queda currently has
less than 500 members. It was estimated to be 2000 around the time of 9-11.
Of course the number of folks that hate the US has grown enormously as a
direct result of Bush's actions in our name....sigh...peter
Peter Hirst wrote:
> I know we've been asked to take it outside, but I just can't let this
> onepass.
>
> Grant wrote:
>
> " It remains to be seen how much of a threat to the existence of
> our nation post 9/11 acts of terrorism will be."
>
> No, it does not remain to be seen. We know now and the Bush
> administration has known all along that the threat to our EXISTENCE as a
> nation is zero. None. Even Bush and Cheney have dropped the pretense of
> "those who seek to destroy us" and talk now about "folk who want to
> hurt us". Our EXISTENCE! Please. The entire combined power of all
> things al Qaeda is MAYBE that of two counties in eastern Kentucky. No
> offense, Kentuckians but, if you think a couple thousand deranged
> criminals constitute a NATION that could possibly threaten our
> EXISTENCE, then you don't hink much of the strength of the country or
> its institutions. I hate to think of it actually happening, but this
> country could sustain ten or a huindred times the 911 attacks, and as
> outrageous and morally devastating that might be, it would not put a
> dent in our viability as a nation. We might SELF destruct out of the
> fearmongering of those who profit by protecting us from illusory
> threats, but the outside force itself can't even come close. We proved
> that by
> virtually ignoring the destruction of New Orleans. Al Qaeda and the
> combined strength of every terrorist organization on the planet -- and
> you can include Iran, North Korea, and the Posse Comitatus, if you like
> -- even assuming they were a single organized force, don't have a minute
> fraction of what it would take to destroy us as a nation, and I am sick
> to death of hearing this criminal gang talked about as if they were the
> Third Reich. So far, since these yahoos started operating twenty or so
> years ago the only damage to our institutions has been those we have
> allowed our own government to impose.
>
> National Security my ass!. I'll say it again and then shut up. The
> entire "WAR" on terror is a money and power grab preying on the illusion
> that we are being kept safe from an illusory threat. I am four square
> with Ben Frnaklin on this: those who would give up essential liberty
> for a little security deserve neither liberty nor security.
>
> God bless the Reagan-Clinton-Bush Supreme Court -- with the exception
> of two moronic dissenters -- in upholding the writ of habeas corpus in
> the face of the fear and cowardice this overblown selling of the THREAT
> has caused.
>
> There.
>
> I feel better now.
>
> Peace
>
> Peter
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Marcoux"
> <gblacksmith at alamedanet.net>
> To: "Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:55 AM
> Subject: RE: [TheForge] jobs OT
>
>
> Hi Peter: It remains to be seen how much of a threat to the existence of
> our nation post 9/11 acts of terrorism will be. Interestingly enough, the
> confederacy, the Japanese in WW2 and the anti-American elements in the
> mid-east and elsewhere have a common thread: a desire to confront a
> seemingly superior power in a struggle for survival, and a desire for
> autarky.
>
> I don't see how you can claim categorically that those who sponsored the
> 9/11 attacks, triggering the "war on terror" are ultimately less of a
> threat
> than the confederacy or the Japanese; in fact this distinction is less
> easily made as we are facing essentially a nation, as opposed to an
> identifiable state. It is this uncertainty that is driving policy
> formulation.
>
> To those deprived of their rights, the "temporarily justified extraordinary
> measures" you describe are being employed today under the same rubric of
> necessity. One person's civil rights violation is another's "necessity."
> "Necessity" has long been the rallying cry of the despot and the creed of
> the servile.
>
> I would also disagree with you on the relative loss of civil liberties
> during the cold war vs. the current war on terror. We tend to reflect on
> the doings of the House un-American Activities Committee as only having
> affected a few artists. In fact, whole careers and lives were ruined via
> innuendo of communist sympathy, reasonable suspicion and probable cause
> were
> ignored routinely, no matter who made the accusation, much as our Muslim
> population is under suspicion today.
>
> I completely agree with you about the significance of civil liberties,
> having served this country under arms for most of my adult life. I made it
> a point to study what I risked my hide for.
>
> Grant
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Peter Fels &
> Phoebe Palmer
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:58 PM
> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] jobs OT
>
>
> Hi Grant;
> The civil war and WW2 were major threats to this to the existence of our
> nation, formally declared wars and temporarily may have justified
> extraordinary measures.
> The "war on terror" is not in that category.
> Neither is it of comparable gravity to the " commie threat" then.
> I did not say Bush was toxic.
> I meant that under Bush , we have lost more of our CIVIL LIBERTIES to
> what was then, a relatively minor threat.....than we lost during the
> whole commie threat, cold war and all!
> Our civil liberties are an important part of what makes this a great
> nation.
> "> Political Correctness is just the latest attempt to convince SOME
> folks that
> > you CAN pick up a turd by the clean end."
> LOL!!! Got that right....pf
> >
>
>
> Grant Marcoux wrote:
>> Pete: Even at 63, you are not old enough to remember that Habeas Corpus
> was
>> suspended during our Civil War and that there were "secret military
>> tribunals" in WW2 and of course, the incarceration of our
> Japanese-descended
>> American citizens without even the pretense of legal proceeding. This
>> tub-thumping was led by a man who was later to become a Supreme Court
>> justice and a champion of liberty: Earl Warren. Check out his historic
> role
>> in the "gentleman's agreement" regarding Asian immigration into CA in the
>> 30s.
>>
>> Bush more toxic than communists? Can't agree with that one either.
>> Check
>> up on the "De-Kulakization" of the Soviet Union under Stalin and
>> administered by Khrushchev. Millions killed under the theme of
>> "Collectivisation"
>>
>> Bush dosen't come close.
>>
>> We tend to forget these things in the heat of the moment.
>>
>> Political Correctness is just the latest attempt to convince SOME folks
> that
>> you CAN pick up a turd by the clean end.
>>
>> Grant
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Peter Fels &
>> Phoebe Palmer
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 5:21 PM
>> To: Blacksmithing List Sponsored by ABANA
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] jobs OT
>>
>>
>> We have gone markedly faster in that direction under Bush than at any
>> time i can remember....I'm 63.
>> Based on an attack fomented by a just few thousand extremist loonies,
>> our president has abrogated more of our constitution than whole
>> generations of entire nations full of communists managed.
>> This is way too close to Nazi values for me....pete f
>>
>> schade at acegroup.cc wrote:
>>> On Jun 10, 2008, at 1:39 PM, <Grover.Richardson at gtri.gatech.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Seig Heil
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sieg Heil is a German phrase, which literally means "Victory Hail" or
>>> "hail victory". During the Nazi era, it was a common call at political
>>> rallies. When meeting someone, it was customary in Nazi Germany to give
>>> the Hitler salute and say the words "Heil Hitler". "Sieg Heil" was
>>> reserved for mass meetings such as the ones at Nuremberg where "Sieg
>>> Heil" was shouted in unison by thousands. Often a Nazi official would
>>> shout into a microphone "Sieg" and the crowd would answer with "Heil,"
>>> and there might be several repetitions of this at times in
>>> ever-increasing volume. At such rallies there was often a display of
>>> banners carrying the slogan "Sieg Heil" along with the swastika. The
>>> NSDAP (Nazi Party) made a pin badge in 1933 displaying a victory wreath,
>>> the Swastika, and the words "Sieg Heil".
>>>
>>> The expression itself was born during a party meeting, when Joseph
>>> Goebbels said "Sieg heil" and all supported the phrase (however an early
>>> associate of Hitler, Ernst Hanfstängl, claimed to have devised it).
>>> Since Nazism argued that war was a way to determine the superior race
>>> and that Germans were that superior race, hailing war was to hail the
>>> struggle that would eliminate all others and establish, in a social
>>> Darwinist manner, the "New Order."
>>>
>>> Today in Germany, using the greeting in written form, vocally, and even
>>> extending the right-arm without the phrase are forbidden. 1. It is a
>>> criminal offence punishable by up to three years of prison (StGB,
>>> section 86a)2. The same is true for expressions that might be mistaken
>>> for "Sieg Heil". Usage for art, teaching and science purposes is exempt
>>> from punishment.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieg_Heil
>>>
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>>
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