[TheForge] Atlantic 33 question - Long reply

Thu Jan 24 10:29:35 EST 2008

Since it is not supper long I will post the text of an article I did on 
Atlantic 33 and Hy-Tuf Vac-Arc
If newsletter editors want an email copy of the orginal article -- just 
write me off  "TheForge"

Dave Smucker
Brasstown, NC

Two Very Interesting Steels for Blacksmithing Tools

by Dave Smucker

In a past issue of our newsletter, I have talked about proprietary steel 
that some blacksmiths like for tools.  It is called "Flutagon or Atlantic 
33".  I have been able to obtain data and some history on this steel and it 
surprised me somewhat in that it is not one of the S series tool steels as I 
supposed.

The other very interesting steel is Timken Latrobe Steel's Hy-Tuf Vac-Arc 
that has found its way into race car axles and from there into some great 
blacksmithing tools.

First, let's take a look at:

Hy-Tuf Vac-Arc

This is an ultra high quality steel originally developed by Crucible Steel 
(1948) and today made by Timken Latrobe Steel for the production of aircraft 
landing gear.  Based on my past industrial experience I think that Timken is 
the number one company in both bearings and special steels.  Unless you are 
prepared to pay a whole lot of money don't expect to go the Timken Latrobe 
Steel and buy this product.  It is a very expensive steel to make to meet 
the aircraft requirements.

But what does aircraft landing gear have to do with blacksmithing tools? 
Well, it is kind of an interesting story.  Race car builders are always 
looking for something a little better for use in their cars - and a 
manufacture of race car drive axles found that Hy-Tuf was an outstanding 
material for use in NASCAR axles.  Interesting, but how does that help me? 
Paul Garrett, resident blacksmith at the John C. Campbell Folk School who 
just happens to have a background in NASCAR still has a few connections. 
Because of this he is from time to time able to get some of these used race 
car axles and sells them for around $ 10 a piece.  (This alone is reason 
enough to make the joint North Carolina, AACB meeting at the Folk School so 
you can purchase some of these from Paul.)

Just what is this "Hy-Tuf", what tools is it good for and how do I work with 
it?

"Hy-Tuf" steel is a high strength low alloy steel.  It typically is used in 
the 220,000 to 240,000 psi (pounds per square inch) tensile strength range 
for both aircraft and race car applications.  This steel has good ductility, 
fracture toughness and impact strength in this kind of strength range and 
its hardness will typically be in the mid 50's Rockwell C.

In other words, this steel makes great punches, hot cuts, hot or cold 
hardies, cold chisels, pry bars, bending forks, etc.  If we had the material 
in large sizes it would also more than likely make great hammers.  In the 
size we can get from Paul, I would sure try it for small repoussé hammers.

Experience with punches that Paul has made shows that this material has 
rather good hot strength.  (It seems to be in a class with S7 and H13).

Forging

You should forge this steel in the range between 1950 F (orange red) to 2250 
F (almost yellow-white) and not forge below 1700 F (cherry red) based on 
Timken Latrobe's data sheet.  (As it gets below orange, you will find you 
might as well be hitting your anvil.)

Heat Treating?

In my opinion, you should always heat treat this steel.  For narrow sections 
(punches, hot cuts etc.), you can air quench, for thicker sections use an 
oil quench.  Then temper at 400 to 600 F in an oven.

To heat treat heat above 1700 F (cherry red) but NOT to a Lemon and then 
quench.  Right away temper as noted above.  Can you get by without the heat 
treat - Yes, can you get by without the temper, Yes, but just hope that they 
didn't do this on your aircraft's landing gear.

This is one hell of a tough steel, so it will do a great job for many 
applications by just normalizing it when you have finished forging.  Heat to 
1700 F (orange) and let it cool in still air.

What in this stuff any way and how do they make it?

Hy-Tuf Vac-Arc has the following typical analysis:

·        Carbon 0.25

·        Manganese 1.35

·        Silicon 1.50

·        Nickel 1.80

·        Chrome 0.30

·        Molybdenum 0.40

With this steel's low carbon content is seems remarkable that it gets to 
hardness in the mid 50's Rockwell C but this is a result of the high 
Manganese along with the other alloying elements.  Also, the combination of 
the Manganese and Silicon work together to give a shock resistance similar 
to S5 tool steel.

This steel is made to very strict cleanliness standards through the vacuum 
arc remelt process.  It would then proceed through forming operations 
(rolling or forging) and complete inspection and testing procedure before 
being sold.  Sold as an aerospace product every piece could be traced back 
to manufacturing ultrasonic inspection and testing data.  That's what makes 
it so expensive and blacksmiths so lucky if we can buy used from Paul 
Garrett.  Buy a chuck from Paul and try it.  You will like it.

Welding?  Can I weld Hy-Tuf? The simple answer is yes and it is not too hard 
to do for our use.  Since welding on aircraft landing gear leads the list of 
really really big NO NO's I could not find any industrial data on welding. 
However, Paul has had no problems welding on blacksmithing tools.  I simply 
suggest a good preheat, 400 to 500F, the same way I would handle 4140 or 
4340.

Flutagon

or Atlantic 33

What is this tool steel? Some blacksmith swear by Flutagon at the best ever 
tool steel.  Well, I have been surprised to find out more data - but I still 
don't think it is that special.  In my opinion, it is a hard-to-find, 
obsolete, steel with equal or better material today available from many 
sources.

It is a steel developed early in World War II for field use and very simple 
heat-treating requirements.  It was made by the Atlantic Steel Company and 
maybe by others during the war.  I can't (internet searches) find Atlantic 
Steel in business today.  They went into bankruptcy in 2003 as did their 
parent company Ivaco, Inc.  Parts have been sold, which may include the 
former Atlantic Steel Company and they may be operating today under a 
different name.  It you know anymore about this I would like to know.

What is Flutagon?  Why this name?  What makes it special or not?

First the name, and shape.  Instead of being a square bar, it is a square 
bar with rounded corners and flutes down the face of the bar on all four 
sides.  Why? so that under field conditions during WWII, whether on 
shipboard, or in the army the tool user / maker could tell that it was tool 
steel and not just some other steel.

WWII also explains the other "great feature".  This "great feature" is that 
the steel does not need to be tempered after heat-treating.  As I learned 
from talking with Jim Battson the reason for this desired feature was the 
lack of tempering ovens under field or shipboard conditions and the desire 
to not have to train those making their own tools how to temper using 
colors.  Some blacksmith today still think this is a great feature.  I guess 
because they are "untrainable".  Well, that is being a little hard on them 
but tempering using an oven is very very easy, if a bit slow, (you have to 
take an hour or two).  But tempering using color or a file test is very 
quick and easy to learn too.  If you have noticed, I find it very hard to 
understand some blacksmiths' reluctance to do the tempering step when 
heat-treating.

In other words, I would not go out of my way to buy a special steel just 
because I don't need to temper it.  I think this is especially true when 
today we have S7 and H13 two really great steels that are not hard to find, 
nor hard to heat treat for smithing tools.  In fact, I find that I can make 
just as good of tools out of 4140 or 4340 as I can Flutagon for most uses. 
4140, by the way, is my steel of choice for hammers and power hammer dies.

If you have Flutagon, great, it is a very good steel.  If you know where to 
purchase Flutagon today let me know and I will pass it on through the 
newsletter.

What is this stuff, anyway and why does it not require a temper?

The manufacturer published the following composition data back in 1962.  In 
percent.

·        Carbon              0.30 to 0.40

·        Manganese        0.35 to 0.40

·        Chrome             0.65 to 0.85

·        Nickel               0.35 to 0.55

·        Molybdenum     0.55 to 0.75

·        Copper              0.35 to 0.55

·        Silicon               0.50 to 0.70

I would note that these are very wide ranges for a tool steel, ranges so 
wide that I would never accept them for an industrial application.

Steve Barrenger had a small sample I got from Al Kahkonen tested for me 
before I found this old data sheet and the results showed the following from 
one sample.

·        Carbon              0.32

·        Manganese        0.45

·        Chrome             0.67

·        Nickel               0.82

·        Molybdenum     0.53

·        Copper              0.53

·        Phosphorous      0.004

·        Sulphur              0.005

While some of these values are outside of the manufacture wide ranges - it 
does look like the same steel and, after all, it did have the Flutagon 
shape.  The Phosphorous and Sulphur, by the way, are bad actors in most 
steels and these low values are good.

Steve's testing friends thought that this steel looked like a highly 
modified 4130 and thought maybe it came from Europe.  Well, it has too much 
Nickel and Moly in it for a 4130 steel along with unexpected silicon and 
copper.  The copper being very unusual in most steels except those for which 
it is added for corrosion purposes such as the Corten Weathering steels.

The steel looks much more like a modified 8630 or modified 8640.  Besides 
its use as a blacksmiths steel, in the Flutagon form this steel was also 
sold as a flame hardening die steel, under the name of Atlantic 33.  It is 
also called out as carburizing steel followed with flame hardening which 
would be consistent with steels of the 8630 type used for case hardened 
gearing.

What about this DO NOT TEMPER or maybe it should be NO NEED TO TEMPER?

Well, first we can understand World War II training and field use need for a 
steel tough enough to get by without tempering.  In fact, this isn't unlike 
what some blacksmiths like to do with the air quenching steels like S7 and 
H13. They don't temper them and because they are such tough steels, they get 
away with this most of the time.  In both case of S7 and H13 they would make 
a better tool if in fact they did temper.  When Flutagon was introduced 
during WWII, water hardening tool steel W1 and some oil hardening tool steel 
O1 where the prime steels for blacksmithing tools.  If you don't temper 
these steels, they will break just looking at them.  (If you drop a W1 tool 
after quench and before tempering it will often break.)  So, this super 
tough Flutagon made real sense for easy field use - just heat it above 
critical, quench in water and use.

But would it be a better tool if tempered?

I think so but don't have any data to prove it.  Secondly, if we are going 
to use this steel for hot cuts, punches and hardies then we will get them to 
temper temperature in use and it will most likely improve them to go ahead 
and temper.  As I have said before I COME FROM THE ALWAYS TEMPER SCHOOL of 
tool making.

Now with the use of this steel such as Atlantic 33 for flame hardened cold 
work dies I can understand the manufacturer's instructions not to temper. 
The reason is that if you temper you will drop the hardness of this steel 
quite a bit and greatly increase die wear.  But then if I was going to the 
trouble to make cold work dies for other than some very short run 
application I would be using one of the much better cold work die steels 
such as D2.  For short run application I would stick with 4140 or case 
hardened 8620.  Easy to get, work with and heat-treat.  This last paragraph 
has little to do with blacksmithing - but may explain to some why Atlantic 
33 was sold as No Quench Required.

For what it is worth, Tom Clark makes his tongs from 8620.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Mudge" <dave at magichammer.net>
To: "theforge mailist" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 1:43 AM
Subject: [TheForge] Atlantic 33 question

>A friend sent me a piece of Atlantic-33 or Flutagon to make some
> slitting chisels from.
> I think I know, but I will ask anyway.
> How does one work this material?
> thanks in advance,
> dave mudge
> Bogalusa, Louisiana
> dave at magichammer.net
> _______________________________________________
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