[TheForge] Art, doncha know....

Wed Nov 7 19:00:15 EST 2007

I judge stuff all the time- I am not the least bit non-judgemental.

For example, I have been to Florence, Italy, and there is always a  
line to see "David". I saw it, and frankly, it did not ring my bell.  
If I wanna see a guy with no clothes on, I can just look in the  
mirror- and see a less muscular, less good looking one with a beer  
belly.
Yes, its carved with skill.
But no amount of wishful thinking can make it mean much to me- I like  
girls.
There is a lot of art-speak about how its one of the masterpieces of  
all time, and so on. I sure dont see it- its just another reasonably  
well executed figurative sculpture.

On the other side of town, about a mile from the Pitti Palace, there  
is an amazing Art Noveau style Pallazo, which is now divided into  
about 6 apartments. And outside, where the formal garden used to be,  
there is a set of incredible hand forged gates, made by Miccelucci,  
who was a contemporary of Mazzucatelli, only he worked in Florence,  
instead of Milan. The garden is now used for parking, and the gates,  
rusting and sagging, are propped open with a scrap of wood.

The Florentines, and the tourists as well, walk right by without a  
second glance. These gates are really good- world class. But frankly,  
without education in the subject, most people just dont care.  The  
work stands on its own. And to anyone who has actually studied Art  
Noveau, or metalwork, these hand forged gates are incredible. And to  
the vast majority of the population, David is better.

To me, that proves my point that its all about opinions and taste.

You drop the term "bad art"- but you dont mention any specifics. Its  
always easy to slam a straw man- what specific modern artists or  
metalsmiths do you think are so totally phony that they are dragging  
civilisation down?

I havent been to the Hirschorn in a good ten years or so- but the  
artists that most likely fit your original descriptions of "crappy  
welds and the low level of craftsmanship " would probably be either  
David Smith, or Mark DiSuvero.

google or wiki em, both have lots of info online.

Smith actually worked as a welder and machinist in factories before  
becoming a sculptor, and did a bit of forging as well, buying his  
first anvil and forge in 1932. But in his welded sculptures, he often  
stuck together scrap in a pretty quick and dirty way. He could weld  
as well as he wanted to- he was trying to say something specific  
instead of just aping the past. And DiSuvero is also quite  
accomplished at metal working- he has two large studios, one on each  
coast, where he runs cranes, welds, and cuts huge pieces of steel  
himself. In both cases, if these are indeed the artists you are  
talking about, you are confusing intention with ineptitude. These are  
guys who can make whatever they want, and choose to make the  
sculptures you saw.

A lot of classicists seem to think there is some kind of  
international cabal of art critics that pulls the wool over  
everybodies eyes, and somehow creates "bad artists".
In reality, getting any two critics to agree is like herding cats,  
and most artists have done their best work before critics even know  
of their existence. So modern sculptures are usually (although  
certainly not always) created in an "art-speak" free zone. The art- 
speak is added later.

The work stands on its own.
On that, we absolutely agree.

But what criteria we use to judge it depends on what we know, and  
what we like.

I suppose you could be right, and your taste is "good", while mine is  
"bad".
Even though I am sure we could agree on quite a bit of work in both  
categories.

But I kinda doubt it. I think there is stuff you dont like, for  
personal, historical, or aesthetic reasons, and other stuff you dont  
like for no reason at all. Just like me.

The government spends a tiny amount on art every year- maybe as much  
as one or two paintings sell for at Christies auction house in NYC.
A recent Matisse sold for $70 Million to a private collector. The  
government Might spend that much a year, if you included every  
railing, bench, window, and floor that is actually a needed part of  
the building, is paid for out of the art budget.
That leaves another Billion or two a year that private collectors are  
spending on art, in the USA alone.
So I cant see how the piddling amount the government spends is  
affecting the art world much.
Plus, virtually every "real" artist, the ones who show in museums and  
sell their work at fancy galleries, looks down their noses at  
"public" artists, and consider us (for I am one) hacks. There are a  
couple of big names who also do public art- probably less than you  
could count on one hand. The vast majority of the artists who make  
incomprehensible art have never seen one red cent from the  
government- the NEA hasnt given individual artists grants since the  
late 80's.

As for your theory of "so called experts"- its not the way it has  
worked on any of the over 40 public projects my wife and I have been  
involved in. They have almost all been juried processes, where you  
compete against as many as 200 other artists, with the juries  
composed of facility users (librarians, cops, nurses, teachers, and  
so on) administrators, architects, other artists, and community  
members. I have had to convince juries with as many as a dozen people  
on them to get a project.
Maybe somewhere it works like you say, but I have sure never seen it.

I have gotten contracts to build fences for government buildings- I  
am not sure if thats what you call a "subsidy" or not. But it sure  
didnt feel like it to me when I did the job.

Ries

On Nov 7, 2007, at 3:37 PM, George Dixon wrote:

HI,
i gotta say I agree w/Bob.
Ant 'artist' who can make it on their work needs a day job, not a  
Govt subsidy.
GD
On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:58 PM, Bob Ehrenberger wrote:

> Everyone has an opinion, and so do I.
>
> I think that a big part of the problem is government sponsored  
> art.  Just
> like insurance, when the person making the decision is not paying  
> the bill,
> the system is broken.  When the government wants to support art, it  
> gives a
> bunch of money to a so-called expert who them hires a friend to  
> produce
> something to sell to the government. If that expert had to spend  
> his own
> money, a lot less crap would be produced.  One of you said that  
> good art
> stands on its own. I agree, and if it is good, someone will be  
> willing to
> spend their own money on it.  When they are writing checks out of  
> someone
> elses account, the standard goes down the tube.
>
> In summary, you can make and sell anything you want. You can call  
> it art if
> you want.  But con't make me pay for it with my taxes.
>
> Robert Ehrenberger
> Shelbyville, Mo.
> eforge at centurytel.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: George Dixon <gdblacksmith at charter.net>
>> Sent: Nov 7, 2007 3:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Art, doncha know....
>>
>> The assertion that 'art is in the eye of the beholder' is more of an
>> intellectual conversation stopper than an intellectual truth.
>>
>> Perhaps analogy would make my perspective clearer:
>> I dislike country music...I like other styles of music.  However, any
>> music poorly delivered sounds bad to anyone in earshot, like the
>> genre or not.
>>
>> It is obvious to the ear that music played onna out-of-tune
>> instrument, country or classical, is being poorly executed.
>> Unfortunately the human eye does not have the instinctual reaction to
>> bad 'art' that the ear has to bad musical execution.....
>>
>> The result is art-speak, explanatory titles and 'eye of the beholder'
>> compassion.
>>
>> Again, the work stands alone and no amount of wishful thinking or
>> nonjudgmental equivocations can change that.
>>
>>
>> In most cases there is no record of what an artist was thinking as he
>> carved or painted or forged...there is simply the work itself.
>>
>>
>> George Dixon
>
>
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Ries Niemi
Industrial Artist
http://www.riesniemi.com/