[TheForge] OT A good idea that took a long time to arrive

Tue Mar 20 20:22:41 EST 2007

Frosty,
I forgot to address some of your questions and comments. Carbon erodes
considerably faster than tungsten. Carbon rods, if properly used within their
maximum rated amperage, still only last between one and three hours in a twin
carbon-arc torch, and are consumed considerably faster during gouging
operations. Carbon-arc G uses inert gas fed through a separate tube or tubes,
rather than through a hollow carbon as far as I know (always willing to learn
better). There is almost no plasma formed; although this particular electric arc
has been described as a "carbon flame" in the early literature, it is an
electrical arc with vapor from the carbon turned to CO and immediately burned to
CO2 (not much) as the only flame element. The CO2 is said to provide a little in
the way of cover gas, but not much; thus, the point of an additional inert gas
fed in from a separate source in some operations. Usually, a flux is placed on
the base parts and consumed to provide a covering gas blanket, whether during
brazing or when fusion welding of alloys like aluminum or cast iron. Carbon-arc
could never be an improvement over TIG. However, it takes up very little space
in a tool box, and doesn't need to depend on inert gases. Even so, you couldn't
give me a standard twin carbon-arc torch. Only a miniature torch with the
additional capabilities discussed earlier would be worth the bother even to a
hobbyist.

We are in total agreement about patent search pros and cons. They can be a lot
of fun, but are mostly of use to make sure someone else hasn't already produced
a bright idea after you have one yourself. For getting bright ideas in the first
place, there is no substitute for long years of experience "on the tools."
Mikey

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]
On Behalf Of Jerry Frost
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 12:07 PM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] OT A good idea that took a long time to arrive

I don't know much about carbon arc welding, gouging 
yes, welding no. Father used to talk about it a little 
as being terribly frustrating unless you had a real 
gift.

As to feeding inert gas through a carbon tube to CIG 
(Carbon & Inert Gas) weld:

Does carbon erode slower than tungsten?

Will a proper plasma column form at all with the arc 
initiating outside the inert gas stream?

If it works, in what way would it be an improvement 
over TIG?

Google's made it easier but I started surfing the 
patent servers shortly after going online. Then the IBM 
patent server was free and open. It was a lot easier to 
navigate than the Gvt. server and more complete than 
other more recent freebe servers.

There's definitely a "danger" to be aware of when 
you're researching ideas on the patent servers. As you 
say it can stifle your imagination with a little 
knowledge, convince you something's been tried and 
doesn't work, or something does work that doesn't, it 
can send you off on zero gain tangents and low 
performance wrong tracks.

My progress making propane burners is a perfect 
example.

Sometime in the late 80's, early 90's coffee shop 
buddies of mine laid a stack of paperwork, drawings, 
spec. sheets, theoretical text, etc. etc. regarding 
induction devices on me. They wanted to see if I could 
figure out how to make one produce high volume, high 
pressure output with low volume high pressure input. 
They wanted to make a tire inflater that'd operate 
using 100psi. input and fill a tire to 40psi. or so. 
Not possible of course and I said so. It'd work but 
you'd need something like 1,500psi. input and a can of 
"Fix a Flat" is only a couple bucks.

Regardless of how their idea worked out what I saw was 
a naturally aspirated burner. I had the data sheets in 
hand telling me a linear inducer will work just fine 
but had pretty tight tolerances for the home builder. 
On the (literally) facing page was a "Jet Ejector" 
inducer that was such a powerful device I could miss 
optimum design by more than 30% and still have a home 
made burner that'd perform on either side of neutral.

It was some time before I tried making a burner; more 
than a year. By then the internet had gone public and 
I'd discovered the IBM patent server. On that server I 
found loads of furnace designs, from jewelry to RR car 
size. Low and behold a patent for a farrier's forge 
door hinge (or something as significant) had a bell 
reducer and pipe, linear inducer for the burner. It was 
virtually identical to the Aussie or Ron R's EZ burner.

Seeing something that "works" sent me down the linear 
inducer path for a couple years. Until I got tired of 
the hassle getting them tuned and I finally made my 
first Jet Ejector. That one took me a couple hours to 
get tuned and is still working fine.

Anyway, I love surfing the patent servers; so many 
truly wacky ideas have been patented one can hardly 
help but be entertained. <grin>

Frosty
-------------------------------
If it ain't forged
it ain't real.
Wrought iron is.
The FrostWorks

Meadow Lakes, AK.

http://www.artmetalradio.com/

From: "Kathy" <keporter at comcast.net>

> Frosty,
> I never tried until Google started offering the 
> service free. On the one hand,
> you get a lot of background information for an idea 
> you're toying with very
> quickly with them, but they also tend to put a crimp 
> in the imagination, just
> like any well worn path. I looked up carbon-arc 
> torches and was really amazed at
> the lack of truly independent thought in the patents. 
> After a week studying them
> on Google, I got better input from one casual remark 
> made by Dan Brewer on the
> way home from a casting party than anything the 
> patents showed. For instance:
>
> (1) Not one design ever gave serious consideration to 
> ergonomics.
>
> (2) No design ever took into account the fact that 
> very small carbon rods have
> been available as far back as 1950; back then you 
> could get 3/32" diameters,
> although 1/8" is the smallest scarfing rod sold 
> today.
>
> (3) Not a single design ever contemplated combining 
> the processes of joining and
> scarfing in the same torch.
>
> (4) And so naturally no inventor ever considered 
> designing in the ability to
> push inert gas for welding through the same openings 
> as are used for compressed
> air scarfing.
>
> I have heard a lot of people say that welding with a 
> twin carbon-arc is pretty
> much of an exercise in futility, but then so would 
> driving interstate in a
> Stanly Steamer be. Kind of makes you wonder doesn't 
> it?
> Mikey
>

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