[TheForge] Sighting in Rifles

Wed Jun 20 01:38:58 EDT 2007

Bruce:  I stand corrected on the original intended purpose of the KTW
bullet.....it was, as you stated, for the penetration of car bodies.  I
found an old interview of Dr. Kopsch (the "K" in KTW).   The Teflon was a
coating over a hard bullet material (brass alloy) and designed to reduce
barrel wear, not lead contamination.  Oddly enough, the Teflon reduced the
efficiency of the bullets in penetration of soft body armor, according to
Kopsch.  The enhanced penetration harder materials was the result of the
harder bullet material.

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Grant Marcoux
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:47 AM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Sighting in Rifles

Bruce:  What ultimately happened was that the NRA opposed proposed
legislation that would have banned "any" ammunition that couls penetrate
BRGs.  The proposed ban  covered all types of hunting rifle ammo because it
could penetrate the BRGs of the day.  The anti-bullet crowd then labeled the
NRA as being in favor of "cop killer bullets" in private hands.  Ultimately,
the the NRA, the LE community and the anti-bullet crowd hammered out
legislation that prohibited the marketing of  pistol ammo specifically
designed or enhanced to penetrate BRGs.

Technical expertise on this issue was provided by the military, the NRA and
the US DOJ.  Local LE agencies were only slightly less ignorant on the issue
than the public at large as they typically don't have the technical
resources or budget to retain bullet armor experts on staff.  Heck, BRGs
were just becoming the rule for patrol officers.

Hence, their position on teflon was not, at the time, rooted in firm
knowledge of bullet or armor technology. Given this state of affairs,  the
reaction of the LE community was predictable.   The whole teflon issue was
really a red herring.

Anybody who was curious about the teflon coating process purpose could look
up the KTW process through the US patent office....its public record.

Now we have wearable BRGs that will stop full-power FMJ rifle rounds.  I
know of a case in Iraq where a Marine was hit in the torso with a round from
an SVD....his SAPI plate stopped the round and he got up and walked away!

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Bruce Freeman
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:28 AM
To: theforge at mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Sighting in Rifles

I admit not to have followed the technical aspects of this story.

I did, however, note that at one point law enforcement agencies across the
country came out firmly against teflon-coated bullets.  Seems to me the NRA
won that one anyway, but it's too long ago to remember accurately.

Bruce
NJ

>>> gblacksmith at alamedanet.net 6/18/2007 4:44 PM >>>
Andy:  This Rec Guns thread MAY be a case of a "factoid".....a statement
that takes on the appearance of a fact through frequent repetition.

The KTW and S&W Nyclads were introduced at a time when the hazards of lead
vapors were just being recognized.  Most of the lead vapor generated comes
from the contact of the hot powder gases with the bullet's base.  This is
why revolvers lead so much at the forcing cone when lead bullets are
fired...the lead vapors are hottest there.  Someone came up with a way to
clad an entire bullet with a lubricant (Teflon and nylon) that would not
deteriorate over time, or be readily acted upon by powder gases.  These
bullets were also found to increase feeding reliability in auto pistols.

Someone or a group of different someones came up with the idea that these
bullets could defeat cops "bulletproof" garments because their slippery
surfaces would part the Kevlar fibers in the vest more readily than a
"regular" bullet.

Back in those days, (1970s & early 80s)standards for Bullet Resistant
Garments (BRGs) were looser in terms of standardization of threat levels,
Kevlar thread counts and methods of constructing the BRG.  Word got out that
some brands of vests were failing the tests with regularity, and even the
tests were not standardized until the US DOJ contracted HP White
laboratories to test BRGs.  It was in this environment that the "Cop Killer
Bullet" stories began.  These stories were echoed in the TV programs of the
day as well, even though there has not a single LEO killed by a KTW "cop
killer bullet".

As a result, the evil, green KTW "cop killer bullets" were discontinued in
the face of political pressure.  What the general public  did not know was
that no wearable (concealed) BRG of the day was "bulletproof."  In fact,
some lots of the early BRGs would not stop a .22 HV reliably! Most vests of
the time would not stop a 115 FMJ 9mm once the velocity reached 1100 fps,
none would stop a standard .30 carbine round or a 7.62 Tokarev, much less
ANY full-power rifle round, jacketed or soft-point.  None of these rounds
were Teflon coated...gilding metal bullet jackets are MUCH harder than the
Teflon.

So the anti-bullet crowd could crow over the victory over "cop killer
bullets" while counting on the public at large to be ignorant of the real
issue.  And as the Earth cooled...the KTW myth was born

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Andrew Vida
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 7:46 AM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Sighting in Rifles

Grant Marcoux wrote:
> Andy:  I must respectfully disagree. Actually, the KTW was designed to
> reduce airborne lead contamination and to be a less costly alternative to
> gilding metal jacketed bullets.  S&W introduced the Nyclad (nylon coated)
> pistol ammo for the same reason.

	Well, then a pretty large contingent of the shooting community has been
under this misconception for a very long time.  This had been discussed
at length in rec.guns at least 15 years ago... maybe I left the thread
prematurely.  Still, I find it hard to believe that the people over
there got sucked that far into an urban legend.

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