[TheForge] Re:liability

Dan Brewer danqualman at gmail.com
Wed Feb 21 23:49:09 EST 2007 

Since ABANA has this stuff that doesn't get used between conferences would
the concept of a center that has a permanent setup of forges and tools for
blacksmiths to come to earn and to share ideas.  Have classes, lectures and
displays.  A living museum.   This could be  sponsored by ABANA with help
from the folks that advertise in the hammers blow.  Possible a place that
tools and materials could be purchased through. Have the grounds large
enough to hold a large gathering on.  And a place to store the equipment for
the traveling show. Maybe partner up with on of the many blacksmith schools
that are around .  Possibly one on the east coast and one on the west coast.
Just some rambling thoughts.
Dan in Auburn   

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Beard
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:18 PM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Re:liability

We looked into getting a unit to store a car in.  It was over 100$ per
month, so we decided against it.  Someone said earlier that ABANA
can't afford to buy its own gear since storage costs were prohibitive.
 This seemed like a decent alternative, though I guess you would have
to do the math.


On 2/21/07, Steve Smith <sos at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Jim, I can't imagine this being a good idea. I haven't priced storage
> units, but I bet you can get a good amount of space for $50 per month.
> You aren't going to buy land for that, let alone storage units.
>
> Security is far better as well...
>
> Steve
>
> Jim Beard wrote:
>
> > The other thing burning man does, that people seemed to think ABANA
> > could not do is store physical resources.  I'm not sure why this is
> > such an impossibility for ABANA.  Burning Man purchased a piece of
> > ranch property, and stored there own assets there.
> >
> > It seems like ABANA  could easily enough, purchase a few acres in the
> > middle of the US, near highway access.  Then buy some of the old Train
> > car storage units, or flat bet storage units, and keep physical stuff
> > in these units.  There would obviously be some upfront costs, but
> > within a short amount of time ROI would occur.  Then for events (maybe
> > a big conference, maybe smaller regional conferences) the cost of
> > using those goods would only be transportation costs.
> >
> > Is there something inherently bad or wrong about my suggestion?
> >
> > Jim
> > Eugene, OR
> >
> > On 2/20/07, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net> wrote:
> >
> >> I personally would love for ABANA to be a mini Burning Man Festival,
> >> but alas.....
> >> I don't think that most of the membership would understand. or attend.
> >> Like they are saying in the responses A waver does not make it. If
> >> ABANA got sued in a big way that our insurance didn't cover, I
> >> couldn't afford to spend time in court, win or loose and most of the
> >> board members couldn't either. I prefer rock solid insurance.
> >> dave m
> >>
> >> On 2/20/07, Jim Beard <regionalchaos at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > The only organization that I 'belong' to that holds an annual
> >> > 'conference' is Burning Man.  (http://burningman.com)  They
facilitate
> >> > an arts festival in the form of a temporary city in the Black Rock
> >> > desert of Nevada once a year.  Close to 40,000 people attend for
about
> >> > a week on average.  My understanding of the way that they handle the
> >> > insurance issue (and believe me, crazy, dangerous, relatively
> >> > un-insurable stuff goes on) is by a disclaimer on the ticket.  It
> >> > reads, "You voluntarily assume the risk of serious injury or death by
> >> > attending this event."
> >> >
> >> > Can't a similar approach be taken by ABANA?  What I mean is, can't a
> >> > ticket to an ABANA event state that by attending the event, the
ticket
> >> > holder is waiving their right to be compensated for damages related
to
> >> > injury or death?
> >> >
> >> > BTW, the Burning Man community holds TONS of regional events that are
> >> > all loosely affiliated with the main organization.  The main org is
an
> >> > LLC that manages the event, and there is a non profit associated
> >> > (Black Rock Arts Foundation) that handles grant money for artists,
> >> > etc.  The main org provides some resources to regional events.  These
> >> > take the form of some web exposure and hosting, mailing list hosting
> >> > and assistance from BRAF in the form of advice, grants and traveling
> >> > art.
> >> >
> >> > Burning Man might not be exactly the type of organization that you
> >> > want to model ABANA after, but it is a large central body that
manages
> >> > a yearly arts festival (with close to 40k in attendance) and works to
> >> > cultivate loosely affiliated regional organizations.  Oh, and almost
> >> > everything happens because of volunteers.  There are very very few
> >> > paid positions in the LLC.  Thousands of people volunteer to make the
> >> > event happen.
> >> >
> >> > just .02$ and some info,
> >> >
> >> > Jim
> >> > Eugene, OR
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 2/19/07, Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer <artgawk at thegrid.net> wrote:
> >> > > Here's the deal with that, i think...
> >> > > The board members are potentially liable for legal complications
> >> > > resulting from a conference.
> >> > > They would have to indigent or awfully foolish to proceed without
> >> > > insurance.
> >> > > The insurance companies first rule is CYA....So they sit on the
> >> > > board members and quiver at any perceived liability.
> >> > > Blowing an anvil!!!!Oh My Gawd!!! Quack!! Quack!!
> >> > > To reduce a conference to the size where nobody's responsible,
> >> > > makes for a very small event.....or Phlip's decentralized,
> >> > > democratic model....which has some real virtues.
> >> > > Mark and Sylvia Mondloch wrote:
> >> > > > If ABANA can not get over it's liability fears it will never be
> >> able to
> >> > > > move on.
> >> > > > mondloch at silvercreekpottery.com
> >> > > > www.silvercreekpottery.com
> >> > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mudge"
> >> <dave at magichammer.net>
> >> > > > To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> >> > > > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:47 PM
> >> > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] ABANA conference details: tents,
> >> organization mode
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >> Suggesting those tiny little tents comes from a good place in
your
> >> > > >> heart and I thank you for your creative thinking. There are
> >> several
> >> > > >> other aspects to the tenting (and tenting is a small issue).
ABANA
> >> > > >> does not and can not afford to inventory (own) lots of 'stuff'.
We
> >> > > >> already have two containers jam-packed full of conference stuff
> >> like
> >> > > >> forges, wires, display cases.etc. We have no place to store
things
> >> > > >> like tents for two years between conferences.
> >> > > >> The tents that we use are more like 40' x 100'. We rent them
> >> because
> >> > > >> the rental company will 'professionally' set them up, take them
> >> down,
> >> > > >> repair the stake holes in the asphalt, and absorb the cost of
any
> >> > > >> damage or repair and releases ABANA from one more liability. I
> >> don't
> >> > > >> think that the insurance company would let us set up our own
> >> even if
> >> > > >> we had enough volunteer crew to do it.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> On 2/19/07, Bruce Freeman <freemab222 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > > >>> And THAT tent/tarp is expensive in my book!  NJBA has
> >> > > >>> one maybe a quarter that size that cost maybe a few
> >> > > >>> hundred dollars, rather than thousands.  Takes a few
> >> > > >>> men to set it up...
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> Maybe the whole approach to giving large conferences
> >> > > >>> is at fault.  Imagine a system in which the several
> >> > > >>> affiliates each sponsored a demonstrator at some
> >> > > >>> central regional conference.  Each affiliate would be
> >> > > >>> responsible for tools, tent, bleachers, etc.  ABANA,
> >> > > >>> or someone respresenting ABANA, could coordinate to
> >> > > >>> provide resources common to all.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> .......This idea has merit, keep working on it.
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> Creative solutions to problems could be found because
> >> > > >>> there'd be more brains working on the problem
> >> > > >>> ("distributed control" rather than "centralized
> >> > > >>> control").
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> For example, why a single, centralized food service?
> >> > > >>> Because we're running these on campuses, that's why.
> >> > > >>> Get them off campus.  Allow local food businesses,
> >> > > >>> caterers, hot dog trucks, lunch wagons, etc., to come
> >> > > >>> in and set up, and take their lumps if their food is
> >> > > >>> mediocre and nobody buys it.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> ..........There are several reasons for the centralized
> >> services in
> >> > > >> the big conference.
> >> > > >> People enjoy the camaraderie of eating together in a nice air
> >> > > >> conditioned cafe.
> >> > > >>> From the producer's point of view, you want to keep your people
> >> > > >> together and on-site. ABANA makes a little money on the food
> >> and rooms
> >> > > >> as well.
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> The major fault of ABANA and most other volunteer
> >> > > >>> organizations is that they are run like businesses.
> >> > > >>> Who the hell wants a second - unpaid! - job?  People
> >> > > >>> want to be "paid" for their work, but the pay doesn't
> >> > > >>> have to be money.  I like getting paid by having an
> >> > > >>> opportunity to contribute, having my contributions
> >> > > >>> appreciated by others, participatiing in camaraderie,
> >> > > >>> etc.  But if the organization is such that volunteers
> >> > > >>> don't get to do what they want to do, then they burn
> >> > > >>> out  quickly.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> ..........I am glad that you recognise that we are a VOLUNTEER
run
> >> > > >> organization and that the board does not receive any monitory
> >> > > >> compensation for their work. As far as running the organization
> >> like a
> >> > > >> business, we have a $150k trust that pays for affiliate grants
> >> and the
> >> > > >> conferences are running over $350k....... publications are
around
> >> > > >> $150k , and a $50k executive secretary, we had better try to
> >> run it
> >> > > >> like a business and not waste the member's money.
> >> > > >> dave m
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> Bruce
> >> > > >>> NJ
> >> > > >>> --- Saint Phlip <phlip at 99main.com> wrote:
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> > On 2/19/07, Dave Mudge <dave at magichammer.net> wrote:
> >> > > >>> > > ......Just the tents at Richmond cost us $30k.
> >> > > >>> >
> >> > > >>> >
> >> > > >>> >
> >> > > >>>
> >>
http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&catalogI
d2=10001&ftCatalogId=10001&storeId=10001&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&searchMe
thod=wcSearch&searchType=ANY&searchBeginIndex=0&searchDefaultPerPage=10&ftSe
archBeginIndex=0&ftSearchDefaultPerPage=10&mfPartNumber=104513
> >>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> >
> >> > > >>> > Or goto www.farmtek.com
> >> > > >>> >
> >> > > >>> > Item number 104513
> >> > > >>> >
> >> > > >>> > --
> >> > > >>> > Saint Phlip
> >> > > >>> >
> >> > > >>> > Heat it up
> >> > > >>> > Hit it hard
> >> > > >>> > Repent as necessary.
> >> > > >>> >
> >> > > >>> > Priorities:
> >> > > >>> >
> >> > > >>> > It's the smith who makes the tools, not the tools
> >> > > >>> > which make the smith.
> >> > > >>> > _______________________________________________
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > > >> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> >> > > >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> >> > > >> theforge mail list group photo site is
> >> > > >> http://www.photoaccess.com
> >> > > >> Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> >> > > >> password:  anvil
> >> > > >> ___________
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> >> > > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> >> > > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> >> > > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> >> > > > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> >> > > > password:  anvil
> >> > > > ___________
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> >> > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> >> > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> >> > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> >> > > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> >> > > password:  anvil
> >> > > ___________
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> >> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> >> > theforge mail list group photo site is
> >> > http://www.photoaccess.com
> >> > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> >> > password:  anvil
> >> > ___________
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> >> theforge mail list group photo site is
> >> http://www.photoaccess.com
> >> Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> >> password:  anvil
> >> ___________
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> > password:  anvil
> > ___________
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> theforge mail list group photo site is
> http://www.photoaccess.com
> Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> password:  anvil
> ___________
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
theforge mail list group photo site is
http://www.photoaccess.com
Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
password:  anvil
___________

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