[TheForge] coffee and guns OT OT OT

Thu Dec 20 15:21:45 EST 2007

Cheney would much rather be fishing in Spring Creek, PA, which I was
lucky enough to gaze upon today while visiting family.  Carter is a
regular there.  Just like prostitutes, good luck finding any good ones
who *want* to do their job, they're just good enough and "lucky"
enough to get those jobs.  They know how to do it.  They'd much rather
be fishing, or hunting, not working.  I agree that screwing of
populace and erosion of freedom happens, but I think it is a
side-effect of weak/lame priorities, lack of follow-through, etc.  I
also agree that just like getting a bad lay for too much dough, those
professionals need to be kept on their toes and held to their
promises.  Otherwise the lunch breaks and vacations overtake the work
they're supposed to do.  I don't think any big conspiracies can
succeed because those in power are too selfish.  The sum of all that
selfishness sure hurts us though.  This [blacksmithing] is the sort of
community that will help keep True Americana alive through the next
Greater Depression, IMO!

ben

On Dec 19, 2007 4:05 PM, Jim Beard <regionalchaos at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know, I've only been watching C-SPAN, and I'm not convinced my
> government doesn't want to screw me..
>
> Yesterday, Senators like Orin Hatch were up arguing that corporations
> bottom lines are more important then an individuals guaranteed
> constitutional rights.  It sounded like a screw job to me.
>
> To each their own though, eh? :)
>
> Jim
> Eugene, OR
>
>
> On Dec 19, 2007 12:08 PM, ries <ries at riesniemi.com> wrote:
> > On the original point, I still think its silly to say that because we
> > have small arms, the government we have doesnt become a
> > dictatorship-  there are lots of countries with lots of guns in the
> > hands of the populace that have governments that DO run roughshod
> > over them- Iraq under Saddam featured the second or third highest
> > number of guns per capita in the world, and the secret police would
> > still disappear you.
> > And there are countries where, aside from gun ownership laws, the
> > government arguably runs LESS roughshod over the populace than here-
> > in many ways, Australia, or Finland, or Argentina, for example, are
> > all more free than we are in many ways.
> >
> > But my main objection is the action movie inspired viewpoint that a
> > few brave souls with small arms can fight a government-  certainly,
> > you could be a nuisance, but not win a war, and not dissuade a real
> > army from occupying you and doing what it wanted.
> >
> > Snipers are fearsome and do grave psychological damage. But the real
> > casualties in any war in the last hundred years or so are almost
> > always from artillery.
> > In Iraq, the vast majority of our casulties are from IED's- resulting
> > from the hundreds of thousands of tons of HE and artillery shells
> > that were lying around the country.
> > Statistically, well over half the coalition casualties in Iraq are
> > IED caused.
> > In addition, the Iraqis have a seemingly endless supply of RPG's and
> > Mortars.
> >
> > Private citizens in the USA have none of this stuff.
> >
> > Most small arms fire, even by trained soldiers, misses.
> >
> > The police accuracy figures in the USA, by supposedly trained
> > officers who must qualify as often as monthly, are unbelievably bad-
> > I think hits are less than 30% from LESS THAN 20 FEET!
> >
> > The simple fact is that in real combat situations, in real world
> > situations, people panic, throw up, go catatonic, and freak. Trained
> > people. Experienced people. And they often miss, no matter how good
> > they are on the range.
> > Weapons break. In combat, everything that can go wrong does go wrong.
> > And this is with the entire might and force of the US military
> > supplying you with the industrial output of the greatest nation on
> > earth.
> >
> > Its silly to think that average americans, with a couple hundred
> > rounds of ammo, no matter how pure of heart, pose any kind of a real
> > threat to an actual military.
> >
> > The VietMinh had artillery as early as Dien Bien Phu- read Hell in a
> > Very Small Place, about the 1954 battle against the French.
> > They were supplied, heavily, by both the Soviets and the Chinese.
> > The Ho Chi Minh trail was in constant use, supplying the Viet Cong in
> > the south with weapons and ammo.
> >
> > The French supplied the american rebels in the Revolutionary war, and
> > without their support, we probably wouldnt have beaten the british.
> >
> > The US jewish community smuggled surplus arms and even an entire
> > scrap bullet factory to Israel in the late 40's
> >
> > Every historical instance of a halfway successful guerilla insurgency
> > always features outside support, money, and arms.
> >
> > But the most offensive, and wrong, part of this whole idea, is the
> > concept that there is an "us" and a "them", and that the US
> > government is some kind of alien entity that WANTS to run roughshod
> > over us, if only we didnt have all those mini 14's.
> >
> > Thats just silly. The US government is US- it is average americans.
> > Even Cheney, scumbag that he is, owns guns and hunts.
> > MY OWN MOTHER was an elected official for most of her adult life.
> > I have met politicians. And they are just like you and me- some nice,
> > some nasty, some smart, some dumb.
> > Our system works because of its inherent checks and balances in the
> > constitution and judicial system.
> > Both of which are mostly run by smart people who actually care about
> > what they do.
> > Who could make more in private industry.
> > Yep, there are crooks and thieves, just like in any field.
> > But by and large, our country runs pretty well.
> >
> > There is no big government conspiracy to screw you, if only you didnt
> > have a shotgun behind your bedroom door.
> >
> > You been watching too many movies, dude.
> >
> > Ries
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 19, 2007, at 11:16 AM, James Binnion wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Dec 19, 2007, at 1:45 AM, Andrew Vida wrote:
> > >
> > > As for training, I would say that most of the world'd best long
> > > distance shooters were probably NOT trained by the military.  I'm
> > > just guessing.
> >
> >
> > My studio assistant is a very talented rifle marksman, he competes at
> > 600 and even occasionally at 1000 yards with iron sights. It takes a
> > highly skilled marksman to shoot accurately at those ranges and most
> > but not all of them are current or ex military or LEO's.
> >
> > Unless you are training regularly you will not be able to hit a man
> > sized object at long ranges (500 yards or more) no matter how fancy
> > the scope or rifle, just too many variables. Especially in combat
> > type setting where you have not had the luxury of sighting in the
> > scope/rifle on a range at a specific distance.
> >
> >
> > James Binnion
> > jbin at well.com
> >
> >
> >
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> > Ries Niemi
> > Industrial Artist
> > http://www.riesniemi.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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