[TheForge] coffee and guns OT OT OT

[Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer]

With the widespread availability of accurate, scoped,long range 
rifles, an effective revolt against an oppressive government 
becomes a much more realistic threat.
It helps keep them honest...something we could use a lot more of...pf

craig.schaefer at verizon.net wrote:
> And like in any civil war conflict, SOME of the governments war making equipment will become equipment of the insurrection, because that's where the sympathies of the government troops lie.
> 
> Speculating of course.
> 
> CraigS
> Gresham, OR
> 
> 
>> From: GRAF <adveniam at att.net>
>> Date: 2007/12/18 Tue AM 11:21:43 CST
>> To: Sponsored by ABANA <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] coffee and guns
> 
>> Our armed forces are really good at meeting other organized armed forces 
>> that present a target rich environment.
>> It is not as effective as an occupying force.
>> It can barely keep the lid on in Iraq.
>> Imagine trying to constrain an insurrection in the highly urbanized 
>> landscape of the US.
>> It would not happen.
>> Add to that rural resistance  on the scale of the US .
>>
>> All in all I think Andy is correct. The mere hassle factor placed right 
>> up front is something any occupier, domestic or foreign, would find a 
>> significant stumbling block.
>>
>> It is much more cost effective to play up close to the margins of the law.
>>
>> What makes a huge stockpile of ordnance in private hands work in this 
>> country is that we DO believe in our rule of law, and that officials DO 
>> leave peaceably when their terms are up. That plus an adequate economy 
>> keeps those private arms locked away.
>>
>> Anything that weakens this system of private ownership, including 
>> registration in my opinion, works against us.
>>
>> Mike Graf
>>
>>
>> Andrew Vida wrote:
>>>
>>> ries wrote:
>>>> On Dec 17, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Andrew Vida wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And finally, Jim is spot on.  The ONLY thing keeping government from 
>>>> running wholly roughshod over us is the fact that we are pretty well 
>>>> armed.  Were it otherwise, the few rights we retain would probably 
>>>> have flown away decades ago.
>>>>
>>>>     -Andy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andy, you are a great guy, but you are completely FOS on this one.
>>>> No war in history has been won by small arms alone, and the ONLY 
>>>> thing keeping government from running roughshod over us is the 
>>>> constitution and our rule of law- GUNS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
>>>     I love you, too, but I must respectfully disagree.  Rule of law is 
>>> nothing more than an agreement.  If a group believes they can and 
>>> should take control, and assuming they in fact have the material 
>>> instrumentality to do so, there would be nothing in their way to stop 
>>> them, all else equal.
>>>
>>>     To say that the presence of privately held firearms has nothing to 
>>> do with the maintenance of so-called "liberty" is not reasonable.  It 
>>> isn't the only factor - I hastily said it was, and that was careless 
>>> of me. It is, however, a contributing one and I believe that it IS the 
>>> final check upon those who would consider something very extreme.  If 
>>> an action credibly risks armed revolt, the reasons for entertaining 
>>> such action had better be pretty compelling.  Citizens with no 
>>> recourse to the means of material equalization give usurpers 
>>> considerably less to think about.
>>>
>>>> Without a foreign nation supporting us against our, or any other 
>>>> government, we would be toast in two weeks.
>>>     This is not so easily determined.  This is a very wealthy nation 
>>> and the people here can be very resourceful and determined when the 
>>> complacency is swept away.  Rousing the people of this nation to anger 
>>> would be a very dicey gamble for any administration, were they to 
>>> consider something cure.  It would not be nearly the slam-dunk you 
>>> seem to imply.  But to your point, I will agree that some of the 
>>> outcome would be determined by the response of the corporate 
>>> community.  I am no longer confident that large corporate bodies could 
>>> be trusted to stand by their people.  If they were to side with 
>>> government, and I am pretty sure that many would, that would make 
>>> things far more difficult for the rank and file.
>>>> The successful guerilla wars of the last 5 decades or so were all 
>>>> only successful because a large industrialised nation, be it China, 
>>>> the USA, or the Soviet Union, supported the guerillas with a steady 
>>>> flow of new weapons ( in real combat, guns wear out very fast- 
>>>> machine gun barrels may last one day sometimes, and even a very well 
>>>> maintained assault rifle has a short lifespan) ammo, and, most 
>>>> essentially, crew served weapons.
>>>     A well maintained assault rifle should live for several tens of 
>>> thousands of rounds.
>>>
>>>> Without medium to heavy machine guns, mortars, rpg's, surface to air 
>>>> missles, and hundreds of tons of explosives, all of which are in very 
>>>> short supply in private hands in the USA, you have about a snowball's 
>>>> chance in hell of surviving a few days against the average big city 
>>>> police department, much less a real army.
>>>     Utter nonsense.  You seem to forget who feeds the army we'd be 
>>> fighting.  That would be us.  Without access to steady supplies of 
>>> food, the armed forces would be SOL in short order.  Weapons generally 
>>> do not run themselves.  Food reserves are more readily controlled by 
>>> millions of people than by a few thousands of troops dedicated to the 
>>> same task.  My point is that these scenarios are not simple and the 
>>> action is never linear.
>>>
>>>> Koresh had 50 caliber rifles, full auto weapons, and a reasonable 
>>>> supply of ammo for a private individual in the USA. He and his 
>>>> managed to kill a few feds by surprising them, but in a war 
>>>> situation, his seige would have lasted 2 hours, not 51 days.
>>>> A couple of runs by F-15's with 500lb bombs, and it would have been 
>>>> over by lunch.
>>>     Comparing this with a nation-wide armed revolt is not valid.  It 
>>> is easy to see that ATF could have burned the place down immediately, 
>>> rather than wait 58 days.  This proves nothing.
>>>> So if the government actually decided to flex the incredible force it 
>>>> has as the largest military power on earth, no amount of deer rifles 
>>>> and glocks and shotguns would make much difference.
>>>     Again, I must disagree.  Short of the nukes, our armed forces do 
>>> not hold nearly enough material instrumentality to maintain an 
>>> occupation. I've lived all over this nation and one thing I have come 
>>> to appreciate is its size.  Even ten thousand tanks distributed over 
>>> the area would comprise targets that can be defeated with some 
>>> creativity and determination.  Don't forget that each tank must have 
>>> at least a squad of troops for support.  That would be 60k head 
>>> occupied just keeping the tanks from being defeated.
>>>
>>>> Guns are good for a lot of things- but their mere presence does not 
>>>> mean freedom, democracy, or a hands off government.
>>>     Not in and of themselves, but they are a significant contributing 
>>> factor, even if only as one of last resort.
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