[TheForge] ITC 213 and beyond

Thu Mar 30 14:17:35 EST 2006

Martin,
ITC #213 is recommended as an undercoating to physically bolster ITC #100 at
times. The #100 alone is more likely to peel away from ceramic fiber
products than when it is used with #213 as an undercoating. I believe this
objective can be achieved with the much less expensive Plistix 900 from
Larry Zoeller. A pretreatment of the fiber with rigidizer also helps to
prevent fiber shrinkage--the prime cause of spalling in this case.

Some guys prefer #213 to #100 as the finish coat, and feel it does a better
job of reflection. Again, I think that separating the colloidal content of
#100 from the coarser grains is an effective and less expensive alternative.
#200 mesh zirconia mixed with a bit of bentonite clay (and then water
separated for colloidal content) is another alternative--about one-quarter
the cost of ITC #100.

"Gas Burners" featured ITC #100 without much comment because it is a readily
available and easily applied product, which does not mean I'm a fan of
overpriced goods. The point being that ITC products remain available to
people who need things kept simple, while less expensive alternatives should
be known by people who are willing to take more responsibility. Material
sources are just as important to the hobbyist as construction plans, but
those sources being big corporations for the most part, need occasional
mowing to keep them from going to seed :-) 
Mikey 

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Martin Paietta
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 9:49 AM
To: 'Sponsored by ABANA'
Subject: RE: [TheForge] ITC 213 and beyond

Mike, 

Do you mean 213 as an overcoating instead of 213 as an undercoating?

Thanks for the info.

Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Mike Porter
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 2:41 PM
To: 'Sponsored by ABANA'
Subject: RE: [TheForge] ITC 213 and beyond

ITC 213 is sometimes recommended as an undercoating for ITC 100. Some guys
feel it does a better job of reflecting infrared than the ITC 100.

If I were looking for an optimal finish (at an optimal price) for a ceramic
fiber lining, I would first coat with rigidizer (usually colloidal silica),
to create a gradually stiffened buffer zone in the fiber blanket). After
fully air drying and then forced drying with a light bulb or candle, I would
heat cure up to pumpkin orange.

Next, I would use a toughening layer of Plistix 900 sealant from Larry
Zoeller to create a tough and fairly resilient face coating at an economical
price: http://www.geocities.com/zoellerforge/flare.html

Finally, I would deliberately mix some ITC 100 with a little too much water
in a clear glass jar, and wait for the larger particles to sink out of the
mixture, forming mud on the bottom of the jar. What is left suspended in the
water is colloidal by definition. The IR 'reflectance' of zirconia (and all
other refractory substances) is tied to particle size, so you must assume
that the claimed "up to" 98% reflectance of ITC 100 has more to do with its
colloidal content than with the half of its mixture with large enough grains
to be easily identified by an old man with poor vision. The large grained
mud should be considered as having closer to 60% reflectance; save it for
refractory repair work (mixed with refractory caulk or a little fire clay).

What is the difference to you? All other factors being up to snuff, it is
the difference between lemon-yellow and yellow-white heat with your forge at
maximum, which I do not recommend. You are best off to turn the forge gas
down afterward and be content with fuel savings. Yellow-white is really too
hot for all but the most expensive fiber products. 

I would line a forge with Kastolite 3000 before wasting money on exotic
refractory fiber products. If you look at the efficiency ratings of
refractory fibers, the higher the hot-face temperatures, the less insulating
they become. If you want to really rock hard (ex., welding billets), you
will be better off with a good insulating castable, but for most forge work
the fiber is a better bet.

If you are so greedy that you must have everything (my kind of guy),
consider a secondary insulation layer outside of the forge shell. You can
use Perlite or even fiber glass at this point. Fiberglass is good to about
1200 F. Your exterior temperature would run between four and five hundred
degrees out in the open air. When trapped inside a second insulating layer
it may reach nine hundred degrees, which leaves plenty of safety margin.
Mikey  

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bruce Freeman
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 5:39 AM
To: theforge at mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [TheForge] FW: ITC 213 question

I don't recall ITC 213 being discussed on this forum.  At first I though
you'd got the number wrong - thinking of ITC 100!  But, there it is, as a
coating for metals, right on the anvilfire site.  There's some info there on
its application, but not about use on a forge or why you would be so using
it.

My question to you, is WHY were you advised to use it in the first place?  I
could see, maybe, using this on the metal parts of a forge to prevent flame
erosion.  But I get the impression from you email that you plan to use it on
the refractory fiber.

Bruce
NJ

>>> mpaietta at iglide.net 3/28/2006 11:10:15 PM >>>
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks
Martin 

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Martin Paietta
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 8:21 PM
To: theforge at mailman.qth.net
Subject: [TheForge] FW: ITC 213 question

I just recieved a bottle of ITC 213, is it supose to be brown or does it
turn more of a white or gray after firing. I was redoing the ceramic coating
in my forge and it was recommended to me to put a top coat of ITC213 (I know
213 is for metal). When would you put the top coat on? After the base coat
drys, after one fireing, or after all of the firings? 

Thanks
Martin
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