[TheForge] Re: 250# Murray
Ralph Sproul
brhlbsmt at mcttelecom.com
Wed Mar 29 14:20:20 EST 2006
Hi Grant, glad to hear your machine is a good rebuild and your not fighting
a lemon re-do.
Sid does a real nice job. I've run three that were rebuilt by him and was
very impressed with all of them. He's an awesome resource as well to ask
questions of - he is so willing to take the time to help you. I always buy
any parts I can from him to make the hammers go together again due to his
helpful service tips and machining advice. Great person to do business with
if someone out there hasn't had the pleasure yet.
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Grant Marcoux
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:39 PM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Re: 250# Murray
Ralph: Thanks for your reply. your emphasis on the incorrectly rebuilt LG
served to beg the question on overall examination. I have seen many LGs,
most of which have been incorrectly rebuilt or maintained. I own a 25#LG,
purchased from Sid at the rebuilt hammer premium, and it is amazing to note
the differences between a Sudemier rebuild and some others, the proof of
which is in the running of the hammer. I guess you have to be of a ceratin
age to understand the logic of these machines. Grant
----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Ralph Sproul
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:23 PM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: [TheForge] Re: 250# Murray
Hi Grant, Well, you asked..............
Not only preperation of mating surfaces BUT, alignment to exhisting
parts
is important as well.
Just about any hammer is rebuildable baring cracked and broken
pieces
(which only sends the costs higher getting parts from Sid - or weld
repairing parts on other hammers, or making them by casting, forging,
machining, etc).
I think my point in the last reply was more of watching out for
folks who
had rebuilt their hammers INCORRECTLY - then your patching a patch so to
speak. When you have to rebuild what they rebuilt - you weren't buying a
rebuilt hammer........your fixing the incorrect repair and all the damage
that it has caused. With babbit bearings it's an easy fix if you've got
three days to tear it apart, melt them out, set up a mandrel (square to the
guides), and then repour, scrape, shim, and refit the shaft. Many folks
don't use end collars on their pours(that have the recess in them) to
replace the worn end housings that the flywheel and clutch hub will wear
away. Knowing what to look for is key in what you have to do ........as
compared to the price they want for it.
When you have a hammer that the bearings are true in, the play is
not
excessive.......it runs like a smooth operating sewing machine.
If you find huge amounts of wear - be sure to pull a cap and see how
bad
the shaft is worn prior to buying it. One plus with babbit is you can turn
the shaft true again (and repour to an undersized re-trued shaft) - but if
you have a shaft that needs replaceing - you usually have to drill it out of
the flywheel and clutch hub - then clean, and set a new shaft. If you try
to press off the clutch spider or flywheel and the pressure gets excessive
and it doesn't budge......stop - you'll break it. Also those tapered keys
are hard to get out on occassion. It has taken me up to seven hours to get
a Beaudry flywheel tapered key out - that's a long, frustrating day - but it
has to be done to get it apart. The trick is to spend the time, not get
mad, don't break anything and keep at it until you succeed.
Another item to watch is the parts for these hammers were often made
to fit
each hammer (especially on the earlier versions). Setting something up in a
milling machine and boring it true to the axis of the part doesn't always
get you where you want to go. I use those transfer punches with a round
level on top of it to align my parts for boring. (this level looks like
the round bullseye level on a tire balancer) This believe it or not will
make the hammer go back together better than trying to get carried away
about "true, square, and accurate".........these are realative terms with
100 year old machinery.
I start with the obvious when checking out a hammer. I'd look it
over for
cracks and obvious repairs that don't look like I'd want to run it with
those repairs if I was to buy it. Just grab the toggles and see how much
they move (and how loose the person was running the ram in the
guides).......this leeds you to checking the guides for major wear (and are
they salvagable - or better yet how much will it cost to fix them). Next
you move to the flywheel and put a bar under it and a block to the frame and
see if it moves...... Yes, these hammers will work with 1/8" play in them -
but they won't work correctly. Anything over a slight clunk of about
.004-.008 is more than needed for oil clearance in the babbit bearings. If
you find one with a lot of play and the toggles are also worn - the hammer
is obviously been run WAY to long out of alignment and it will take reboring
all the toggles and changing to oversized pins along with a repour and
fitting of the babbit bearings.
Springs are cheap - I put one on a hammer when going thru it. It's
usually
the best $50 you can spend in the rebuild.
Dies - I have seen some real home made units and keys that are
nothing but
flat bar upset until something won't come loose......... now you've got to
deal with possible loose die wear and remachine, grind, fit the dies and
keys which can take some time.(after you get the old stuff out of course)
I've seen hammers where the anvil is worn, chewed, and beat 1/4" deep in the
die area from dies running loose for years......obvisously this takes some
time to fix.
Clutches - check the clutch for wear like you did the front flywheel
(in
the up and down range). Sid says 1/16 is tolerable - and they really
shouldn't - be too tight. About .040 is a good clearance for a floating
clutch hub is what I find when redoing one. When the front bearing is
really worn, the toggles floating, the rear babbit slightly worn, and the
clutch will not let go and the hammer coast until you shut it off and
restart it - this is pure and simple a major rebuild is in order.......don't
kid yourself into thinking otherwise. If the hammer's end play is to
great - this will not allow the clutch to work correctly either(shaft moves
forward and back to far)........taking up end play in a babbit pour is the
best bet - a shim washer can be added if you have the option of sliding it
on or welding it in place in position (taking care not to damage the shaft
with spatter).
If you find a hammer that has coasted for years and the clutch hub
looks
like a bad flywheel full of high spots, etc......you may have to machine
that tapered hub along with redoing the bushings and boring those true (if
doing them yourself). Obviously if your seeing cast iron dust all over the
hammer - the clutch is too worn and it's working on destroying the hammer.
Clutch linings can be installed and shimmed to correct some of this wear -
but to much and your at the lathe again.
Motors, belts, linkages, wiring - all can be costly if they are
missing,
worn, cracked, or damaged. A motor that smells burnt - usually is. A hammer
that is real clean is usually one that has been run shy of oil, and wiring
that is dangerous must be replaced for safety. The clutch forks will always
be worn........especially in a hammer that has had a "high speed wobble" in
it for years - and it's been running untrue. Brazing or replacing these to
work evenly will give the best clutch performance in engaging and releasing.
There really isn't too much that one can't do to rebuild one of
these
hammers - as they were designed to be rebuilt in a blacksmith shop with
minimal tooling.....which is why you'll find lots of file marks on parts as
you take them apart - along with beer can shims for the babbits, etc. -
blacksmiths always tend to use what they had. Finding one that was done by
someone that wasn't a cobber is a plus. A good man with a file, some
babbit, a laddle, and some shims can do a lot of justice to a machine. An
idiot with no mechancial skills what so ever on the other hand can hand you
a lemon that can take a lot of money to put back in order.
This is the overview of looking at a hammer - each hammer/machine is
different in some way. You'll constantly find things you won't believe on
them - the list gets long and you just have to use your best judgement on
how much you want to put into the labor of love of rebuilding your hammer -
and NOT regretting how much you paid for it in the first place. I've
rebuilt - or rebuilt for others, or helped others that are stuck on rebuild,
on many hammers. You have to make the call by how cheesy the repair was
done before, or how long something was let go and run improperly to get by -
as to how bad you feel the damage will be to fix.
Obviously the best scenario is to have the ability to run a hammer
to see
how it operates - but most hammers for sale (I'd say 80% will be in storage
or in a shed when you see them - so having a good common sense about
machinery, some welding knowledge of repairs, along with some of the points
above will help you save yourself hundreds or thousands of dollars of work
and headaches on something you were told "Is in perfect working order - it's
a plug and go hammer".
Needless to say my comments on this type of statement will be given
according to a hammer's condition........... :-)
Above all - if you have to believe what you hear - take SOMEONE
along who
knows better!! That's my best advice to you. A good welder, experienced
power hammer person, or machinist in his 50's or better should have enough
experience with machines to save you a lot of money or tell you what your up
against or at least tell you what your in for. Now, whether you listen or
not - is not something I can predict or help you with. :-)
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Grant Marcoux
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 10:57 PM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Re: 250# Murray (Was Re: test)
Ralph: This was a real useful response on your part...you hit it right on
the head regarding rebuilding LGs....preparation of the mating surfaces is
critical. You also mentioned determining which hammers are rebuildable and
which are not.
Obvious cracks,etc. in cast frames, are disqualifiers. Do you have a
systematic check up procedure that you use to determine if the LG hammer is
salvageable/cost effective to rebuild? If so, how do you make this
determination? What are your criteria? I'm curious, as are most other
hammer users.
Grant
-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Ralph Sproul
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 5:50 PM
To: mspencer at tallships.ca; Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Re: 250# Murray (Was Re: test)
Hi Mike, With an underpowered truck it may be wise to let the club
deal
with it. These big old hammers seem to be getting harder to come by lately
though.
Another avenue to persue besides logging and farm machinery is the
car
haulers. 6,000 lbs is a full size car of pickup weight.......so maybe one
of those tilting ramp trucks that delivering up by this hammer - could haul
it home. A one way pay would certainly be less than a round trip. This may
mean you have to go jack it up off the bolts and make it near enough by the
door for them to deal with it on winches .......or stripping it apart to
keep some of the weight off the top also helps.
Around here I've paid anywhere from $1000 - 1200, for 50 lb
mechanicals in
rebuildable shape (which is the only one's I'll buy). Going rate for a 50
lber in good running condition is about $2500-3500. I usually take the
ones that need new shafts, new babbit, clutch and toggle rebuilds, etc. I
tinker and resell them. I won't sell a totally rebuilt hammer for less than
$3500-4000.
You usually find most guys selling hammers (or trying to for a long
time)
as "perfect working order" as they pitch them to me (and they have over 1/8"
play in the babbits with no shims left. Your in for a go of it on those -
but it is amazing what crap folks try to pass off as "in perfect working
order". Biggest sign of a bad bearing, is the hammer will not stop
coasting, and the clutch usually fails to release as it goes into an
eccentric wobble that won't allow it to.
I'm finding many hammers (I've purchased 2) - that have had new
babbit
bearings poured - but no one took the time to level the shaft or better put
"squared it to the ram guides" before pouring ........so they shouldn't have
even bothered as it makes it a total waste of time. After they've done
this - the toggles will be all loose from running on an angle and again with
so much weight throwing out of balance - nothing in the clutch department
works smoothly any more.
They usually tend to sell it as "I totally rebuilt it - but this
thing just
don't work right"........ well they rebuilt it alright - but the starting
reference of where the shaft has to lie is what they missed - so the
hammer's won't ever run right till you pick up the front of the shaft. This
is notorious for the novice to "leave the bottom" and pour the top cap which
is easy - but you end up with a shaft that's low in the front and a hammer
that won't operate properly - be ware of this as it is a common mistake in
buying a mechanical that someone has repaired. Just put a framing square on
the shaft and eye it to the ram guides - it'll tell you what the real deal
with the hammer is.
So in answer to your question - the going rate is determined by the
actual
condition of the hammer. It is up to you to recognize this condition or
not. I see this hammer size sell for $2500-3500 around here......if it is
truely in average or better n average condition.
We made an axle that bolts to an air hammer on Bob Bordeaux's hammer
- and
he pulls it around like a trailer with a hitch that bolts to the
top..........it may be a little hard to lay the Mouloch 250 down onto the
hitch slowly though........... :-)
I've also seen guys take mobile home axles and tack weld em to the
fab
tables to move them across town......... people usually tend to send me
pictures like this.......what they did and got away with kind of
shots....... :-)
Ralph
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