[TheForge] glass doors & glass shaping
craig.schaefer at verizon.net
craig.schaefer at verizon.net
Tue Jun 13 15:33:43 EDT 2006
Water doesn't.
OK, OK, I'll go back to just sitting here quietly.
CraigS
>From: Mike Porter <michael.a.porter at comcast.net>
>Date: Tue Jun 13 13:59:43 CDT 2006
>To: 'Sponsored by ABANA' <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>Subject: RE: [TheForge] glass doors & glass shaping
>Bruce,
>All materials expand under heat, and contract during cooling; their
>expansion/contraction periods are known as thermal cycling. Materials can
>crack either during expansion, or contraction. Usually cracks during the
>expansion period are caused by unequal heating due to their hot face (the
>side exposed to a heat source) expanding faster than their cold face (the
>side furthest from the heat source).
>
>The process of mechanical stresses, do to uneven heating, are repeated
>during the cooling period; this is known as down-shock, and is usually a
>more disastrous break than occurs during a heating phase. A simple
>demonstration of the process and the far greater tendency towards down-shock
>failure, than expansion cracking, can be produced by super-heating a shot
>glass with an ordinary propane torch; a little care will successfully bring
>the glass to red heat, but no amount of care will save it from shattering
>during cool down outside of a properly controlled annealing oven. Allow the
>glass to air cool and it will shatter rather spectacularly in about the same
>amount of time it took to heat up.
>
>The reason I spoke of down-shock in connection with slump formed fire-place
>doors, was that slumping creates multiple cross section thicknesses, thus
>multiplying the tendency of down-shock to shatter materials during thermal
>cycling. Obviously, it is poor engineering to do anything which greatly
>increases your chance of mechanical failure.
>Mikey
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bruce Freeman
>Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 12:37 PM
>To: theforge at mailman.qth.net
>Subject: RE: [TheForge] glass doors & glass shaping
>
>Mikey,
>Please clarify what you mean by "down shock." I don't know that term.
>
>Bruce
>NJ
>
>>>> michael.a.porter at comcast.net 6/12/2006 3:31:56 PM >>>
>No, not slumped glass; not even slumped ceramic, which would be pushing
>the
>technical limits (of the molds) pretty hard. It's a question of down
>shock.
>I don't think such glass doors could be used where they were exposed
>to
>thermal cycling. Etched would likely be the limit for glass decoration
>on
>fireplace doors.
>Mikey
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bruce Freeman
>Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:12 AM
>To: theforge at mailman.qth.net
>Subject: RE: [TheForge] glass doors & glass shaping
>
>Of course, with a glassworker to help out, one could probably do some
>awesome slumped-glass fireplace doors. Maybe slump into a mold that
>reproduces on the glass a motif in the iron frame...
>
>>>> brhlbsmt at mcttelecom.com 6/12/2006 6:51:41 AM >>>
> Roger, Bob, Bill, Walt, and Justin, Thanks for the tips on the
>glass
>temps, materials to work it against, etc. This is all helpful in
>thinking
>on this a bit more.
>
>The glass fellow I'm dealing with has 34 years into his trade and does
>some
>awesome work - Now I have an idea about temps we'll be working with,
>materials to use, and needing tempering after slumping. Once I get
>patterns
>made for lens fit - then I can work on arc to fit the compound curves
>in the
>light. I already have negatives made to create the frame - so I'm
>ahead of
>the game on that part.
>
>This is the first time I've fitted glass to a curved surface so it's
>interesting, educational, and I feel good about having someone with so
>much
>experience in his trade to go to.
>
>I'm going to inquire to him about glass doors for fireplace fronts as
>well -
>he mentioned doing pyrex lenses for these, so he'll probably have some
>input
>on where to find sheet, holding, etc.
>
>Ralph
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of roger olsen
>Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:12 AM
>To: Sponsored by ABANA
>Subject: Re: [TheForge] glass doors & glass shaping
>
>
>Ralph, if you do not get the feedback you hoped for here I will
>suggest
>you temporarily join the Artmetal discussion group. Seems quite a
>few
>have
>worked with glass there. Although their annual shindig is just
>beginning to
>get underway and many may be leaving their homes and computers to
>attend
>such.
>
>I do know of one friend who slumps glass for hanging fixtures and I
>can
>describe his method... He has a series of sizes available and slumps
>his
>glass over stainless steel mixing bowls from the local True Value
>hardware
>store.
>
>I know this is not the shape you are after and my only point may be
>that you
>could probably form your shape out of something much lighter than you
>may be
>thinking.
>
>R Olsen
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ralph Sproul" <brhlbsmt at mcttelecom.com>
>To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:28 AM
>Subject: RE: [TheForge] glass doors & glass shaping
>
>
>>
>> All good info Roger, The fellow that showed me the masonry furnace
>doors
>> had similar angles welded three sides behind the door with the
>gasket
>> tensioning the glass to the door. His was the thick white heavy
>rope
>> gasket
>> and looked rather poorly. I like the idea of a grey colored that
>would
>> tone
>> down the difference between glass and steel so it doesn't look like
>it was
>> silicoln caulked into the door (like his did).
>>
>> Thanks for sending this along - very helpful.
>>
>> On another glass tangent, I'm making 15 sconces for a ski area
>currently -
>> and the glass is to be "slumped" to the compound curves of the light
>> fixture. Anyone have suggestions on how to build glass molds for
>slumping
>> and some do's and don'ts before I get to far along? Just curious if
>> anyone
>> has done any of these types of projects.
>> My current train of thought is to slump over the curve to relax the
>lens
>> to
>> shape going down on the ends. I'll use 3/8 plate to shape to the
>outside
>> radius of the frame to get the form, and brace the steel plate with
>> gussets
>> from the rear to work with and not distort. Any ideas what temps
>slumping
>> occurs at? How will glass release from steel? Can sides to shape
>the
>> glass
>> be done in a prior mold?
>> I'll be meeting with the glass artist next week when I get the proto
>type
>> done to discuss this and he'll have some input for sure - but I was
>> wondering if someone has dealt with this making and shaping of glass
>> lenses
>> before? It would be nice to have some kind of a clue before I walk
>in the
>> door.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of roger olsen
>> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:06 PM
>> To: Sponsored by ABANA
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] glass doors
>>
>>
>>> Are these the three catagories of glass for fire exposure? ......Or
>which
>>> glass do you use in your doors?
>>
>> I have only used tempered or Ceran, Ceran is considerably more
>expensive.
>> I let the client decide which type of glass they want to go with.,
>I
>tell
>> them what I can about each but recommend they call a fireplace shop
>and
>> ask
>> for themselves. Ceran can cost as much as $400 just for the glass,
>> tempered
>> about $80, of course costs vary with size and if there is an arch or
>not.
>>
>>> Do you leave the angles outside the glass perimeter a certain
>distance? -
>>> what I'm asking here is do you leave some kind of room for
>expansion?
>>
>> Yes, whatever my width is from inside wall to inside wall of the
>two
>> verticals of the 1/8th by 1/2 angle I have the glass cut 3/16th of
>an
>inch
>> less, this theoretically gives me 3/32 per side but that is if I
>was
>> perfect in welding on the angle which I am far from. With the
>gasket
>rope
>> pushed in to the angle it all disappears and comes out very clean
>looking.
>> There is no top to the angle iron frame so I only have to think
>about
>> width.
>>
>> Roger
>>
>>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ralph Sproul" <brhlbsmt at mcttelecom.com>
>> To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 3:31 PM
>> Subject: RE: [TheForge] glass doors
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Roger, This is all helpful.
>>>
>>> Any in put on the glass?
>>>
>>> I seem to remember someone told me there was: tempered - which was
>the
>>> cheapest
>>>
>>> Then high heat - best as far as affordable direct fire exposure
>>>
>>> Then the ceramic - best but costly.
>>>
>>> Are these the three catagories of glass for fire exposure? ......Or
>which
>>> glass do you use in your doors?
>>>
>>> Do you leave the angles outside the glass perimeter a certain
>distance? -
>>> what I'm asking here is do you leave some kind of room for
>expansion?
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>>> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of roger olsen
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 5:30 PM
>>> To: Sponsored by ABANA
>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] glass doors
>>>
>>>
>>> when I slide the glass down the frame made by the 1/8 by 1/2 angle
>I
>>> simply
>>> cut a piece of the gray stove gasket rope that is round on the back
>side
>>> of
>>> the glass and under the angle, it holds everything nice and tight
>tucked
>>> back in there. They do make a gasket that is gutter shaped and you
>can
>>> wrap
>>> around the edge of the glass but that holds the glass back and away
>from
>>> the
>>> door frames and just does not look as tight and clean.
>>>
>>> In the tourist / vacation valley that I live there are only two
>masons,
>>> both
>>> exclusively build Rumford of Rumford hybrid fireplaces, this means
>the
>>> fire
>>> cannot be burned with the doors shut. I do whatever the client or
>>> designer
>>> for architect or builder wants and there are many options. Most
>common
>>> is
>>> a metal curtain that is mounted to the back side of the top
>horizontal of
>>> the subframe. My hinges are designed so the doors can be lifted
>off
>if
>>> one
>>> wishes or burned just swung open.
>>>
>>> Another option is fixed screen panels that can be slid in when the
>glass
>>> is
>>> slid out. I sandwich the screen between two pieces of 1/2 by 1/8th
>flat
>>> stock riveted to all four edges.
>>>
>>> Yes, double hinges can be built for glass and screens, I have
>never
>>> built
>>> this kind, have looked closely at maybe four different versions
>that I
>>> have
>>> seen and must say I have never seen any of these that I thought
>came
>out
>>> nice, clean, and really looking right.....................just my
>>> opinion.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>> Ps. if you google Rumford fireplace you will find the home page
>for
>>> Rumford
>>> with a link to photos of many hand made fireplace door sets. I am
>not
>>> sure
>>> if they are still there but some of mine had ended up there as
>well.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ralph Sproul" <brhlbsmt at mcttelecom.com>
>>> To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:57 AM
>>> Subject: RE: [TheForge] glass doors
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Roger, Thanks for the three sided slide in info on the angles -
>I've
>>>> seen this used on masonry furnace doors my buddy does. The sealing
>>>> gasket
>>>> was a mystery to me as it was all welted in rope - and this grey
>>>> material
>>>> you mention is something I'd like to know more about.
>>>>
>>>> When you say the grey colored gasket stuff is this something the
>glass
>>>> supplier provides for you? or did you purchase this seperate from
>>>> McMaster
>>>> or another
>>>> similar industrial supplier? or is this material a refractory
>supplier
>>>> that
>>>> you use?
>>>>
>>>> If you have time, I know you've posted the three glass types for
>fire
>>>> exposure before (but I'll be damned if I can find them). Being as
>I'm
>>>> being
>>>> asked to
>>>> do one of these screen & glass combo covers, would you have that
>info
>>>> again
>>>> on the glasses?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for any info you've got as someone that's done over 30 of
>these
>>>> sure
>>>> has a lot more knowledge than me attempting my first glass
>enclosure.
>>>>
>>>> I've also heard that using the same pintle with an L bracket hinge
>to
>>>> the
>>>> rear screen allows both door units to swing out and be inside each
>other
>>>> when closed (screen in and glass out - then when open the glass is
>>>> against
>>>> the outer hearth/chimney, and the screen is in use or can be
>opened
>more
>>>> than 90 degrees for ease of loading. Is this how you approach
>this
>as
>>>> well?
>>>>
>>>> I remember you sent me some nice picture of the hinges you made -
>but it
>>>> was
>>>> for one set of doors - what have you done for swinging both doors
>when
>>>> requested? Of have you done just screen or glass and not both?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>>>> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of roger olsen
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 3:16 AM
>>>> To: Sponsored by ABANA
>>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] glass doors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I mount my glass behind the doors in a frame of 1/8th by 1/2 inch
>angle
>>>> that
>>>> is welded to the back of the doors on the two sides and the
>bottom.
> The
>>>> glass is held tight by fireplace gasket material, the gray cloth
>stuff.
>>>> The
>>>> glass just slides into the frame behind the doors and his held
>snug
>by
>>>> the
>>>> gasket fabric. Works great, I have built around 3 dozen fire
>door
>sets
>>>> this way with never a problem.
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "paul" <forge at wi.rr.com>
>>>> To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 6:13 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] glass doors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Wayne Ackman wrote:
>>>>>> I am finishing a set of fireplace doors, I have the glass from
>the
>>>>>> cutters and it sets in with about 1/4" space around all sides, a
>bit
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> than I wanted but.... I am wondering about the best way to fix
>the
>>>>>> glass
>>>>>> in the frame. I could set straps across the corners and screw
>them
>>>>>> on.
>>>>>> Would allow the glass to be replaced if necessary, but would
>detract
>>>>>> from the design. Or I could caulk it in, which would help with
>the
>>>>>> space
>>>>>> between the glass and the frame, but I don't know what the heat
>would
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> to that. Nothing good, that I can imagine. I am not coming up
>with
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> idea that I like so was wondering if you all might...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wayne
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>>>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>>>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>>>>>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>>>>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>>>>> password: anvil
>>>>>> ___________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Don't know if it helps, but stained glass pieces installed in
>lead
>>>>> channels are locked in place with plaster of Paris. Might be a
>solution
>>>>> for your application. High temp silicones sounds like a good
>idea,
>but
>>>>> they are so PERMANENT. Better have every thing in place... the
>first
>>>>> time.
>>>>> Seems as if the largest problem would be the different expansion
>ratios
>>>>> of
>>>>> glass and metal. Some means of allowing for expansion would seem
>like a
>>>>> good idea...
>>>>> Paul Sperbeck
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>>>>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>>>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>>>> password: anvil
>>>>> ___________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>>>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>>> password: anvil
>>>> ___________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>>>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>>> password: anvil
>>>> ___________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>> password: anvil
>>> ___________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>>> password: anvil
>>> ___________
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> password: anvil
>> ___________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>> theforge mail list group photo site is
>> http://www.photoaccess.com
>> Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>> password: anvil
>> ___________
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>theforge mail list group photo site is
>http://www.photoaccess.com
>Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>password: anvil
>___________
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>theforge mail list group photo site is
>http://www.photoaccess.com
>Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>password: anvil
>___________
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>theforge mail list group photo site is
>http://www.photoaccess.com
>Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>password: anvil
>___________
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>theforge mail list group photo site is
>http://www.photoaccess.com
>Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>password: anvil
>___________
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>theforge mail list group photo site is
>http://www.photoaccess.com
>Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>password: anvil
>___________
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>theforge mail list group photo site is
>http://www.photoaccess.com
>Login: blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
>password: anvil
>___________
More information about the TheForge
mailing list