[TheForge] glass doors & glass shaping

Mon Jun 12 19:04:46 EDT 2006

Is there a website showing this procedure, or finished photos?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Porter" <michael.a.porter at comcast.net>
To: "'Sponsored by ABANA'" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: [TheForge] glass doors & glass shaping

> I'm still in the reading stage and building equipment for "warm glass" 
> work,
> which includes slumping. However, it sounds to me as though you might want
> to change the equation. Blown glass is combined with steel outer forms 
> quite
> successfully for Spanish and Mexican iron work. About thirty years back, I
> used to blow it into ornamental iron candle holders. The trick of most
> importance is to use sheet metal shields placed 1/8" to 1/4" beyond the 
> iron
> outlines of the form you wish to fill, thus keeping the glass from
> ballooning out too much and becoming very thin in its cross section.
>
> Also the shields force the bulging glass to conform to whatever shape is
> desired. Your end result is an object which encourages the eye to travel
> back and forth between the iron frame and the glass, so that just
> which--iron or glass--constitutes the object's "negative space" can't be
> decided.
>
> So long as the glass is blown inside of the metal cage, it will shrink 
> away
> from the metal enough, on the first partial cooling of contact with the
> metal, to remain slightly smaller, thus providing a safety factor in the 
> fit
> up.
>
> The glass is transferred to the annealing kiln, still in its metal frame,
> which is great insurance against it sagging out of shape during annealing.
> Upon cooling, the glass shape you are thinking about making should lift
> easily from the frame, so that the metal can be finish coated.
>
> This method works very well, and despite its dramatic appearance, does not
> require much skill; just thoughtful preparation. You would be wise to pay 
> a
> glassblower to do the actual glasswork the first time you try this, and
> instruct him or her to avoid creating thin spots. Hope this helps. You are
> welcome to ask more questions should you decide to pursue this method.
> Before you even ask; yes a scorched wooden form with recesses for the 
> metal
> basket will work just as well as sheet metal shields.
> Mikey
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ralph Sproul
> Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:46 PM
> To: Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: RE: [TheForge] glass doors & glass shaping
>
>
> Walt, I have a fellow who's got three glass furnaces and a tempering
> oven -
> so I'm going to let him worry about the annealing.  I'm trying to help out
> with glass molds to make the shapes that will then be slumped and on to
> annealing.
>
> Ralph
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Walter Mullett
> Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:42 AM
> To: 'Sponsored by ABANA'
> Subject: RE: [TheForge] glass doors & glass shaping
>
>
> Ralph,
>
> At our last WRABA hammer-in, we toyed with melting glass shards into holes
> in steel plates.  Looks like that process could lead to some interesting
> designs.  One of the things we talked about was the need to anneal the 
> glass
> afterwards to stop it from cracking.  I would think you would have to do
> that too if you just slumped it.
>
> Walt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ralph Sproul
> Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:29 AM
> To: Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: RE: [TheForge] glass doors & glass shaping
>
>
> All good info Roger, The fellow that showed me the masonry furnace
> doors had similar angles welded three sides behind the door with the 
> gasket
> tensioning the glass to the door.  His was the thick white heavy rope 
> gasket
> and looked rather poorly.  I like the idea of a grey colored that would 
> tone
> down the difference between glass and steel so it doesn't look like it was
> silicoln caulked into the door (like his did).
>
> Thanks for sending this along - very helpful.
>
> On another glass tangent, I'm making 15 sconces for a ski area
> currently - and the glass is to be "slumped" to the compound curves of the
> light fixture.  Anyone have suggestions on how to build glass molds for
> slumping and some do's and don'ts before I get to far along?  Just curious
> if anyone has done any of these types of projects.
> My current train of thought is to slump over the curve to relax the
> lens to shape going down on the ends.  I'll use 3/8 plate to shape to the
> outside radius of the frame to get the form, and brace the steel plate 
> with
> gussets from the rear to work with and not distort.  Any ideas what temps
> slumping occurs at? How will glass release from steel?  Can sides to shape
> the glass be done in a prior mold?
> I'll be meeting with the glass artist next week when I get the proto
> type done to discuss this and he'll have some input for sure - but I was
> wondering if someone has dealt with this making and shaping of glass 
> lenses
> before?  It would be nice to have some kind of a clue before I walk in the
> door.
>
> Ralph
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of roger olsen
> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:06 PM
> To: Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] glass doors
>
>
>> Are these the three catagories of glass for fire exposure? ......Or
>> which glass do you use in your doors?
>
> I have only used tempered or Ceran,  Ceran is considerably more expensive.
> I let the client decide which type of glass they want to go with.,  I tell
> them what I can about each but recommend they call a fireplace shop and 
> ask
> for themselves.  Ceran can cost as much as $400 just for the glass, 
> tempered
> about $80, of course costs vary with size and if there is an arch or not.
>
>> Do you leave the angles outside the glass perimeter a certain
>> distance? - what I'm asking here is do you leave some kind of room for
> expansion?
>
> Yes,  whatever my width is from inside wall to inside wall of the two
> verticals of the 1/8th by 1/2 angle I have the glass cut 3/16th of an inch
> less,  this theoretically gives me 3/32 per side but that is if I was
> perfect in welding on the angle which I am far from.  With the gasket rope
> pushed in to the angle it all disappears and comes out very clean looking.
> There is no top to the angle iron frame so I only have to think about 
> width.
>
> Roger
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ralph Sproul" <brhlbsmt at mcttelecom.com>
> To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 3:31 PM
> Subject: RE: [TheForge] glass doors
>
>
>>
>> Thanks Roger,  This is all helpful.
>>
>> Any in put on the glass?
>>
>> I seem to remember someone told me there was: tempered - which was the
>> cheapest
>>
>> Then high heat - best as far as affordable direct fire exposure
>>
>> Then the ceramic - best but costly.
>>
>> Are these the three catagories of glass for fire exposure? ......Or
>> which glass do you use in your doors?
>>
>> Do you leave the angles outside the glass perimeter a certain
>> distance? - what I'm asking here is do you leave some kind of room for
> expansion?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of roger olsen
>> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 5:30 PM
>> To: Sponsored by ABANA
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] glass doors
>>
>>
>> when I slide the glass down the frame made by the 1/8 by 1/2 angle I
>> simply cut a piece of the gray stove gasket rope that is round on the
>> back side of the glass and under the angle,  it holds everything nice
>> and tight tucked back in there.  They do make a gasket that is gutter
>> shaped and you can wrap around the edge of the glass but that holds
>> the glass back and away from the door frames and just does not look as
>> tight and clean.
>>
>> In the tourist / vacation valley that I live there are only two
>> masons, both exclusively build Rumford of Rumford hybrid fireplaces,
>> this means the fire cannot be burned with the doors shut.  I do
>> whatever the client or designer for architect  or builder wants and
>> there are many options.  Most common is a metal curtain that is
>> mounted to the back side of the top horizontal of the subframe.  My
>> hinges are designed so the doors can be lifted off if one wishes or
>> burned just swung open.
>>
>> Another option is fixed screen panels that can be slid in when the
>> glass is slid out.  I sandwich the screen between two pieces of 1/2 by
>> 1/8th flat stock riveted to all four edges.
>>
>> Yes,  double hinges can be built for glass and screens,  I have never
>> built this kind,  have looked closely at maybe four different versions
>> that I have seen and must say I have never seen any of these that I
>> thought came out nice, clean, and really looking
>> right.....................just my opinion.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Roger
>>
>> Ps.  if you google Rumford fireplace you will find the home page for
>> Rumford with a link to photos of many hand made fireplace door sets.
>> I am not sure if they are still there but some of mine had ended up
>> there as well.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ralph Sproul" <brhlbsmt at mcttelecom.com>
>> To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:57 AM
>> Subject: RE: [TheForge] glass doors
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Roger, Thanks for the three sided slide in info on the angles -
>>> I've seen this used on masonry furnace doors my buddy does. The
>>> sealing gasket was a mystery to me as it was all welted in rope - and
>>> this grey material you mention is something I'd like to know more about.
>>>
>>> When you say the grey colored gasket stuff is this something the
>>> glass supplier provides for you? or did you purchase this seperate
>>> from McMaster or another similar industrial supplier? or is this
>>> material a refractory supplier that you use?
>>>
>>> If you have time, I know you've posted the three glass types for fire
>>> exposure before (but I'll be damned if I can find them).  Being as
>>> I'm being asked to do one of these screen & glass combo covers, would
>>> you have that info again on the glasses?
>>>
>>> Thanks for any info you've got as someone that's done over 30 of
>>> these sure has a lot more knowledge than me attempting my first glass
>>> enclosure.
>>>
>>> I've also heard that using the same pintle with an L bracket hinge to
>>> the rear screen allows both door units to swing out and be inside
>>> each other when closed (screen in and glass out - then when open the
>>> glass is against the outer hearth/chimney, and the screen is in use
>>> or can be opened more than 90 degrees for ease of loading.  Is this
>>> how you approach this as well?
>>>
>>> I remember you sent me some nice picture of the hinges you made - but
>>> it was for one set of doors - what have you done for swinging both
>>> doors when requested?  Of have you done just screen or glass and not
>>> both?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>>> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of roger olsen
>>> Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 3:16 AM
>>> To: Sponsored by ABANA
>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] glass doors
>>>
>>>
>>> I mount my glass behind the doors in a frame of 1/8th by 1/2 inch
>>> angle that is welded to the back of the doors on the two sides and
>>> the bottom.  The glass is held tight by fireplace gasket material,
>>> the gray cloth stuff.
>>> The
>>> glass just slides into the frame behind the doors and his held snug
>>> by the gasket fabric.  Works great,  I have built around 3 dozen fire
>>> door sets this way with never a problem.
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "paul" <forge at wi.rr.com>
>>> To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 6:13 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] glass doors
>>>
>>>
>>>> Wayne Ackman wrote:
>>>>> I am finishing a set of fireplace doors,  I have the glass from the
>>>>> cutters and it sets in with about 1/4" space around all sides, a
>>>>> bit more than I wanted but....  I am wondering about the best way
>>>>> to fix the glass in the frame.  I could set straps across the
>>>>> corners and screw them on.
>>>>> Would allow the glass to be replaced if necessary,  but would
>>>>> detract from the design.  Or I could caulk it in, which would help
>>>>> with the space between the glass and the frame,  but I don't know
>>>>> what the heat would do to that.  Nothing good, that I can imagine.
>>>>> I am not coming up with an idea that I like so was wondering if you
>>>>> all might...
>>>>>
>>>>> Wayne
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Don't know if it helps, but stained glass pieces installed in lead
>>>> channels are locked in place with plaster of Paris. Might be a solution
>>>> for your application. High temp silicones sounds like a good idea, but
>>>> they are so PERMANENT. Better have every thing in place... the first
>>>> time.
>>>> Seems as if the largest problem would be the different expansion ratios
>>>> of
>>>> glass and metal. Some means of allowing for expansion would seem like a
>>>> good idea...
>>>> Paul Sperbeck
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>>
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