[TheForge] Chip Bed Forge

Mike Porter michael.a.porter at comcast.net
Mon Feb 20 22:44:22 EST 2006 

Rich,
I believe anyone can do that, given practice with the correct materials & 
tooling. One of my favorite inappropriate expressions is "good hand/eye 
coordination," which like "team player" is so frequently used to turn the 
truth inside out, and sell a lie. Good hand/eye preparation is more likely 
to be the heart of the matter, ninety-nine times out of a hundred. My bet 
is, the filler rod--not the operator--was king that day. Not that practice 
doesn't make perfect, but practice with the right technique brings 
perfection much faster.
Mike P.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rich Maynard" <rich at maynard.org.uk>
To: "'Sponsored by ABANA'" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 4:42 PM
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Chip Bed Forge


> Reminds me of the time I visited Boxford's, who besides making educational
> CNC equipment also make wheelchairs. They had jigs set up and were brazing
> the frames together, so I asked why. They explained that it was 
> thin-walled
> cold drawn steel, and it would lose a lot of its desirable properties if 
> it
> were welded.
>
> I suggested that mig welding was better for bodging stuff together, being
> better at gap filling, so the brazer (who was really annoyingly young) 
> took
> two pieces of 3/4" pipe, and simply brazed them together in a 'T' with no
> end prep, neatly filling a 3/8" gap with braze.
>
> Damned if I can do that...
>
> Rich.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Mike Porter
>> Sent: 21 February 2006 00:17
>> To: Sponsored by ABANA
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Chip Bed Forge
>>
>>
>> Hope my assessment of European heating equipment was more
>> accurate. Feel
>> free to correct any mistakes with just as much ruthless
>> abandon. I try not
>> to be unfeeling about people, but equipment must stand on its
>> own. What's
>> that English expression..."let the weakest go to the wall"?
>> Of course, we
>> are only doing so well on this side of the pond because
>> someone decided to
>> push propane instead of butane.
>>
>> You and I should get a chance to compare notes more closely
>> on brazing
>> hearths in the coming months, as joining is the thrust of
>> book two. But, you
>> would have guessed that already, if you've been following the
>> thread on
>> vision enhancement.
>>
>> It is my contention that the steady retreat of brazing and
>> soldering before
>> the onslaught of welding technology (which started during
>> world war two) is
>> over. Joining is a process that is far better suited to
>> today's Hi-tech
>> world, and to the demanding sort hobbyist that world is
>> creating; very much
>> like revisiting the late nineteenth century.
>> Mike P.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Rich Maynard" <rich at maynard.org.uk>
>> To: "'Sponsored by ABANA'" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 1:49 PM
>> Subject: RE: [TheForge] Chip Bed Forge
>>
>>
>> > Hi Mike!
>> >
>> > It's 'Design and Visual Arts' by the way, not 'technical
>> department'!
>> >
>> > Rich.
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>> >> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Mike Porter
>> >> Sent: 16 February 2006 17:02
>> >> To: Sponsored by ABANA
>> >> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Chip Bed Forge
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Michael,
>> >>  Try Flame Engineering if you want to find "state of the
>> British art"
>> >> crafts heating equipment. Unfortunately, every bit of
>> their stuff is
>> >> also quite out
>> >> of date. England and the rest of Europe designed all their
>> >> forging/brazing
>> >> equipment to run off of butane--not propane. Butane had been
>> >> thought to have
>> >> several advantages over propane. One of them is that butane
>> >> receives a big
>> >> flame temperature boost (356 degrees more than propane) from
>> >> a lot less
>> >> added oxygen (a ratio of 1.8 to 1 instead of propane's 4.7 to
>> >> 1). But, the
>> >> main advantage was supposed to be safety. Propane cylinder
>> >> pressure is 109
>> >> PSI at room temperature, to butane's 17 PSI. Sounds almost to
>> >> good to be
>> >> true, right? Well, it is. Lower pressure turned out to be a
>> >> mixed blessing
>> >> at best. You see, all their heating equipment needs large expensive
>> >> motor/compressors, and the attendant safety equipment that
>> >> goes with such a
>> >> system...and we find it all down hill from a design
>> >> standpoint from there.
>> >> Oh sure, 17 PSI is plenty of pressure to establish a flame
>> >> with, but the
>> >> fuel cylinder rapidly super-cools, with a resulting drop in
>> >> pressure that is
>> >> pretty close to zero. Europe is now starting to mix butane
>> >> with propane,
>> >> playing catch up, but not doing very well at it. Catching up
>> >> always requires
>> >> 'fessing up to your mistakes as a first step.
>> >>
>> >> The only real innovator I have found in English heating
>> equipment is
>> >> Bullfinch, who not only has come up with some pretty clever single
>> >> gas torch designs (I love their ignition system), but even
>> appears to
>> >> have its own
>> >> foundry. However, I tested Bullfinch's biggest brazing torch
>> >> against a 3/8"
>> >> tube burner last year, and the burner won (just). When tested
>> >> against a 1/4"
>> >> burner with a much narrower target pattern, the 3/8" burner
>> >> was completely
>> >> blown away, but by then I'd got rid of the torch, so they
>> >> couldn't go head
>> >> to head. For about fifty-seven bucks you can buy a High-heat
>> >> Torch (Model
>> >>  "D" blowpipe): Made by Grobet USA, which will keep up with
>> >> the 1/4" burner.
>> >> The Model "D" blowpipe uses compressed air, to collapse a
>> >> brush flame into a
>> >> super fast (and therefore super-hot) needle flame. All this to say:
>> >> "European heating equipment isn't worth the shipping charges,
>> >> let alone the
>> >> prices they ask."
>> >>
>> >> Apparently, Europeans agree with this view, since you can
>> find used
>> >> brazing/forging equipment for sale on UK sites at about
>> 1/10th of its
>> >> original price. As near as I can tell, sales to the school
>> system is
>> >> all that keeps these guys in business. However, the head of a
>> >> London school's
>> >> technical department corresponded with me for a while last
>> >> year, while he
>> >> was building a tube burner and pipe forge for home use.
>> >> Apparently 1/10th
>> >> the price still didn't make local gas forge designs appealing
>> >> to him. You
>> >> can draw your own conclusions :-)
>> >> Mike P.
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Michael Horgan" <lughaid at earthlink.net>
>> >> To: <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:35 PM
>> >> Subject: [TheForge] Chip Bed Forge
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Some years ago I made a gas forge for use at the Renaissance
>> >> > Faire, hiding the hot box under some black lava rock. It worked
>> >> pretty well , at
>> >> > least as a nail forge, but you could only heat one end of
>> >> the bar, with no
>> >> > pass through. Last year we used a Whisper Mama, tucked away in a
>> >> > faux-brick forge.  Still pretty obviously a gas hotbox.  I
>> >> wanted a coal
>> >> > or charcoal fire, but the Faire site, regulated by the Army
>> >> Corps of
>> >> > Engineers and the local county Fire Inspectors wouldn't
>> >> allow the "Open
>> >> > Fire"
>> >> >
>> >> > This year we are putting together a ceramic chip forge,
>> basically a
>> >> > gas burner feeding the bottom of a pile of heat resistant
>> >> "rocks."  I've been
>> >> > looking at the past postings on the forge, and talking off
>> >> list with Paul
>> >> > Boulay , Rex Price, Frosty and Mike Porter, about the
>> ins and outs,
>> >> > advantages and disadvantages of this type of forge. Whether
>> >> it can be made
>> >> > to work with a venturi burner or if a blower is needed,
>> >> what type of media
>> >> > to use  for best heat transfer to your steel, and so on.
>> >> I've also been
>> >> > looking at the "expensive" commercial versions available in
>> >> England as
>> >> > used in the school systems,as shown in the graphics page
>> >> here,  and some
>> >> > slightly different types available in Germany,
>> >> >
>> >> http://www.angele-shop.com/catalog/index.php?cName=gas-forges-
>> >> gasforges .
>> >> >
>> >> > There have been some great ideas pop up, not to mention
>> the usual
>> >> > kludges I'm apt to come up with. <GRIN>
>> >> >
>> >> > Mikie in particular has a great idea for a recuperative
>> forge that
>> >> > looks great for a commercial forging station, if perhaps a bit
>> >> more than I was
>> >> > looking to do as a portable forge at the Faire
>> >> >
>> >> > Seems like there's some interest in this, so I'll be
>> summarizing in
>> >> > later messages some of the stuff we've been talking
>> about, as well
>> >> > as the results from some experimentation I'm doing.
>> I've got some
>> >> refractory
>> >> > media due in this weekend so I can try to produce some
>> >> results to share.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Michael D. Horgan , lughaid at earthlink.net
>> >> > http://members.aol.com/lughaid/ posting from  A BRAZEN FORGERY
>> >> > Blacksmithing and Metalwork
>> >> > Claremont, Ca.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
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>> >>
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>
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