[TheForge] Chip Bed Forge

Mon Feb 20 19:16:47 EST 2006

Hi, Rich.
Hope my assessment of European heating equipment was more accurate. Feel 
free to correct any mistakes with just as much ruthless abandon. I try not 
to be unfeeling about people, but equipment must stand on its own. What's 
that English expression..."let the weakest go to the wall"? Of course, we 
are only doing so well on this side of the pond because someone decided to 
push propane instead of butane.

You and I should get a chance to compare notes more closely on brazing 
hearths in the coming months, as joining is the thrust of book two. But, you 
would have guessed that already, if you've been following the thread on 
vision enhancement.

It is my contention that the steady retreat of brazing and soldering before 
the onslaught of welding technology (which started during world war two) is 
over. Joining is a process that is far better suited to today's Hi-tech 
world, and to the demanding sort hobbyist that world is creating; very much 
like revisiting the late nineteenth century.
Mike P.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rich Maynard" <rich at maynard.org.uk>
To: "'Sponsored by ABANA'" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Chip Bed Forge

> Hi Mike!
>
> It's 'Design and Visual Arts' by the way, not 'technical department'!
>
> Rich.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Mike Porter
>> Sent: 16 February 2006 17:02
>> To: Sponsored by ABANA
>> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Chip Bed Forge
>>
>>
>> Michael,
>>  Try Flame Engineering if you want to find "state of the
>> British art" crafts
>> heating equipment. Unfortunately, every bit of their stuff is
>> also quite out
>> of date. England and the rest of Europe designed all their
>> forging/brazing
>> equipment to run off of butane--not propane. Butane had been
>> thought to have
>> several advantages over propane. One of them is that butane
>> receives a big
>> flame temperature boost (356 degrees more than propane) from
>> a lot less
>> added oxygen (a ratio of 1.8 to 1 instead of propane's 4.7 to
>> 1). But, the
>> main advantage was supposed to be safety. Propane cylinder
>> pressure is 109
>> PSI at room temperature, to butane's 17 PSI. Sounds almost to
>> good to be
>> true, right? Well, it is. Lower pressure turned out to be a
>> mixed blessing
>> at best. You see, all their heating equipment needs large expensive
>> motor/compressors, and the attendant safety equipment that
>> goes with such a
>> system...and we find it all down hill from a design
>> standpoint from there.
>> Oh sure, 17 PSI is plenty of pressure to establish a flame
>> with, but the
>> fuel cylinder rapidly super-cools, with a resulting drop in
>> pressure that is
>> pretty close to zero. Europe is now starting to mix butane
>> with propane,
>> playing catch up, but not doing very well at it. Catching up
>> always requires
>> 'fessing up to your mistakes as a first step.
>>
>> The only real innovator I have found in English heating equipment is
>> Bullfinch, who not only has come up with some pretty clever
>> single gas torch
>> designs (I love their ignition system), but even appears to
>> have its own
>> foundry. However, I tested Bullfinch's biggest brazing torch
>> against a 3/8"
>> tube burner last year, and the burner won (just). When tested
>> against a 1/4"
>> burner with a much narrower target pattern, the 3/8" burner
>> was completely
>> blown away, but by then I'd got rid of the torch, so they
>> couldn't go head
>> to head. For about fifty-seven bucks you can buy a High-heat
>> Torch (Model
>>  "D" blowpipe): Made by Grobet USA, which will keep up with
>> the 1/4" burner.
>> The Model "D" blowpipe uses compressed air, to collapse a
>> brush flame into a
>> super fast (and therefore super-hot) needle flame. All this to say:
>> "European heating equipment isn't worth the shipping charges,
>> let alone the
>> prices they ask."
>>
>> Apparently, Europeans agree with this view, since you can find used
>> brazing/forging equipment for sale on UK sites at about 1/10th of its
>> original price. As near as I can tell, sales to the school
>> system is all
>> that keeps these guys in business. However, the head of a
>> London school's
>> technical department corresponded with me for a while last
>> year, while he
>> was building a tube burner and pipe forge for home use.
>> Apparently 1/10th
>> the price still didn't make local gas forge designs appealing
>> to him. You
>> can draw your own conclusions :-)
>> Mike P.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Michael Horgan" <lughaid at earthlink.net>
>> To: <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:35 PM
>> Subject: [TheForge] Chip Bed Forge
>>
>>
>> > Some years ago I made a gas forge for use at the Renaissance  Faire,
>> > hiding the hot box under some black lava rock. It worked
>> pretty well , at
>> > least as a nail forge, but you could only heat one end of
>> the bar, with no
>> > pass through. Last year we used a Whisper Mama, tucked away in a
>> > faux-brick forge.  Still pretty obviously a gas hotbox.  I
>> wanted a coal
>> > or charcoal fire, but the Faire site, regulated by the Army
>> Corps of
>> > Engineers and the local county Fire Inspectors wouldn't
>> allow the "Open
>> > Fire"
>> >
>> > This year we are putting together a ceramic chip forge, basically a
>> > gas
>> > burner feeding the bottom of a pile of heat resistant
>> "rocks."  I've been
>> > looking at the past postings on the forge, and talking off
>> list with Paul
>> > Boulay , Rex Price, Frosty and Mike Porter, about the ins and outs,
>> > advantages and disadvantages of this type of forge. Whether
>> it can be made
>> > to work with a venturi burner or if a blower is needed,
>> what type of media
>> > to use  for best heat transfer to your steel, and so on.
>> I've also been
>> > looking at the "expensive" commercial versions available in
>> England as
>> > used in the school systems,as shown in the graphics page
>> here,  and some
>> > slightly different types available in Germany,
>> >
>> http://www.angele-shop.com/catalog/index.php?cName=gas-forges-
>> gasforges .
>> >
>> > There have been some great ideas pop up, not to mention the usual
>> > kludges
>> > I'm apt to come up with. <GRIN>
>> >
>> > Mikie in particular has a great idea for a recuperative forge that
>> > looks
>> > great for a commercial forging station, if perhaps a bit
>> more than I was
>> > looking to do as a portable forge at the Faire
>> >
>> > Seems like there's some interest in this, so I'll be summarizing in
>> > later
>> > messages some of the stuff we've been talking about, as well as the
>> > results from some experimentation I'm doing.  I've got some
>> refractory
>> > media due in this weekend so I can try to produce some
>> results to share.
>> >
>> >
>> > Michael D. Horgan , lughaid at earthlink.net
>> > http://members.aol.com/lughaid/ posting from
>> >  A BRAZEN FORGERY
>> > Blacksmithing and Metalwork
>> > Claremont, Ca.
>> >
>> >
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