[TheForge] Tool Steel--This should be OT I think

Thu Dec 28 17:05:03 EST 2006

I would not agree, China has some very good business folks and they work 
very hard at what they do.  They don't want to pay anymore that they have to 
for raw materials.  Most of their coal / coke comes from with in China, not 
import.  They have some of the most modern steel production plants in the 
world.  In the late 80's when I was working with a Germany mill builder, the 
Chinese hand 3000 engineers in Germany learning how to make and run steel 
mills.  More than 80 percent of Chinese steel is being used in country to 
build railroad, bridges and building.  Their internal demand has been so 
high that they drove the price of scrap up world wide -- yet they can use 
only about 25 to 30 percent scrap in their BOF steel making so they are 
making one hell of a lot of steel.

Yes their labor cost are low -- but it takes 6 hours of Chinese labor to 
equal 1  hour of "western" labor so the cost is not as low as it first 
looks.

I am not saying that the direction and size of China is not a problem -- and 
I don't like seeing the words "made in China" on the bottom of everything 
thing I pick up -- but the problem is much more at home and how we treat 
manufacturing, than it is that China just has cheap labor.  In 2000 China 
had 200,000,000 unemployed or under employed men (not counting women) -- as 
long as these number exist labor will remain low cost.  Yet working there 
one of the biggest problems was that it was very hard to keep trained and 
quality people -- because someone else would offer them more money and they 
would move to a new job.  Just like you or me.

Dave Smucker
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Childers" <munlaw2 at hcsmail.com>
To: "'Sponsored by ABANA'" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:35 PM
Subject: RE: [TheForge] RE: Tool Steel

> Stephen, of course; China doesn't even care what energy or raw material
> costs. Labor cost is relatively very small. China will pay more for our
> scrap and natural resources than any one else, but don't worry; they will
> shoot it back at us as soon as they own all the oil in the world. 
> Meanwhile
> we will be buying it back in the form of cheap goods, but no cheap raw
> material, ie we will have to pay now and pay later...
>
> Ron C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Viola
> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:59 PM
> To: Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] RE: Tool Steel
>
> Well as we are talking energy and market demand of steel etc.. does
> the production increase in China have anything to do with the prices
> and shortages? I know Australia seems to be doing quite well with the
> increase of Chinese business. Not sure how far it has spread globally.
>
> I live in a harbour township so the shipyards have plenty of basic
> steel to scrap.. plenty of brass and copper too! (I'm still keen on
> trying the mogame kane technique).
>
> We don't seem to have a problem with steel supply in type or size just
> yet.. infact they tend to deliver the very next day. The only issue is
> cost really. But the college subsidises quite well the cost of
> materials.
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
> On 27/12/06, Jerry Smith <jerry_smith at anvilsandinkstudios.com> wrote:
>> Dave,
>>
>> Most of the bigger companies around me are owned by
>> foreign companies. The small guys are the bigger
>> companies, most of the mills are always on the verge
>> of being shut down for one reason or another. I can go
>> from Wheeling to Steubinville, and see mills not
>> running to any capacity as they did 20 years or more
>> ago. Youngstown was mill town, now the air is clear
>> because of no major mills operating.
>>
>> When I was buying larger amounts of steel, I bought
>> Swedish Steel from the Japanese company that supplies
>> Honda. My SS was bought a Koval's, which I know it was
>> Hitachi in origin, but they are gone.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>> --- "David E. Smucker" <davesmucker at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Jerry,  What you see -- and material size you can't
>> > find is a common problem
>> > during times of high demand.  Special size, and the
>> > small sizes blacksmith
>> > like to use tend to leave the market place.  Why,
>> > because the producers want
>> > to run highest volume possible to make the most, and
>> > this means running just
>> > common sizes.
>> >
>> > Another factor, bad times, always seen to proceed
>> > good times and bad times
>> > may force out the smaller specialty suppliers.
>> > Sometimes smaller suppliers
>> > are family held companies and when the old man dies
>> > the company dies too.
>> > In the late 70's we purchase a special foil shear
>> > for making multi cuts from
>> > a master coil.  This was a several million dollar
>> > machine, and almost
>> > finished when the owner died.  He had given more
>>
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