[TheForge] Brand Loyalty?

Michael michael.a.porter at comcast.net
Wed Aug 23 11:43:47 EDT 2006 

It would be very difficult to keep such a group on track, but if that could
be managed-and it would take considerable time and effort on the part of, oh
say a dozen knowledgeable people--it would be well worth while; I just don't
see such an effort as in the cards.
Mikey

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Peter Fels And Phoebe
Palmer
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 10:29 PM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Brand Loyalty?

Does this mean that there is a need for an online user's tool 
review where we could enter a brand and model # and read the coo 
and bitchathon about each?
Or, is there one already?.....pf

Michael wrote:
> Ries,
> Actually, you and others here are good examples of NOT trusting over-much
in
> brands, as your own words ("somewhat valuable") demonstrate. Yes, you
think
> better of some brands than others, as do I. But, you rely on careful
> analysis as much as on past experience. This is fine. However, blind
loyalty
> is what I'm referring too; not that I'd ever expect to catch you in such a
> mistake. My statement was general, and was aimed at pointing out the
perils
> of brand loyalty to people who haven't had decades of experience;
> essentially, to newbies.
> Mikey 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ries Niemi
> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 2:27 PM
> To: Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Brand Loyalty?
> 
> Elucidate, please.
> 
> My experience has been that in industrial tools, brand loyalty is still 
> somewhat valuable.
> For example, I have never had a problem with any of my Miller welders 
> being less than satisfactory.
> I was somewhat disappointed in my $2500 Miller Spectrum 500 Plasma 
> cutter, which I bought in 1992- I feel that Miller is not as good a 
> plasma cutter producer as they are a welding machine producer, and 
> certainly not as good as Thermal Dynamics or Hypertherm- but I would 
> have brand loyalty to either of these companies, as I trust anything 
> with either name on it to be a quality machine.
> 
> Similarly, I trust inherently Starrett precision machinist tools, or 
> Lenox blades, or Peddinghaus anything, from a hammer to a half million 
> dollar beam drilling and shear line. I trust BPR, which is an Italian 
> company that I own a set of power angle rolls from- I have toured their 
> factory, and would trust any of their products. All the Emglo 
> compressors I have ever seen were a good buy. Never seen a bad product 
> from Klein tools. Jancy, Scotchman, Ellis, and Hardinge are all 
> goodun's as well.
> Off Center Tool- Grant can be trusted to make the highest quality stuff.
> In fact, I could easily come up with a list of 50 or so industrial 
> suppliers of tooling, machines, and equipment that I can recommend 
> without reservation
> - with one caveat-
> and that is that many of them, including Starrett, have a new, low 
> priced, made in China, teaser line of products, which I would avoid.
> 
> In any purchase, particularly one involving serious simoleans, research 
> is a must- and I would not recommend blind purchasing based solely on 
> name. But there are still plenty of very upstanding companies that you 
> can trust- in the industrial field.
> 
> Consumer goods, and consumer electronics, well thats another thing 
> altogether. Although I must say I have never had a lemon from Apple 
> Computer.
> 
> ries
> On Aug 22, 2006, at 11:37 AM, Michael wrote:
> 
> 
>>One of the more interesting aspects of tooling discussions is the 
>>light they
>>shine on the importance of correct philosophy. In other words, what 
>>works
>>and what wrecks; this is philosophy's bottom line after all. I believe 
>>that
>>customer loyalty actually constitutes a problem for manufacturers, as 
>>it
>>only provides a temptation these days--not a reason to behave 
>>responsibly.
>>We understand that reckless abandon in trying to save money leads to 
>>poor
>>tool choices, but how many of us stop to consider that brand loyalty 
>>is now
>>every bit as inappropriate?
>>Mikey
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>>[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 5:13 AM
>>To: artgawk at thegrid.net; Sponsored by ABANA
>>Subject: Re: [TheForge] Induction Forge?
>>
>>Yes, this sort of thing only helps the bottom line in the short term.
>>
>>Steve
>>
>>Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Steve;
>>>I've got to think that Lincoln isn't the company it used to be and
>>>corporate short term thinking has screwed it too.
>>>Kinda hard on a customer's loyalty...Pete F
>>>
>>>Steve Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Pete, I don't understand how Lincoln can get away with that. Bad
>>>>craziness on their part.
>>>>
>>>>Chips are pretty cheap to stockpile (for a manufacturer, I mean).
>>>>Running out/unavailable isn't a valid excuse, it is poor planning.
>>>>
>>>>My two cents.
>>>>
>>>>Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Peter Fels And Phoebe Palmer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Reis is right of course..i was just pipe dreaming again.
>>>>>In fact, i have a sort of horror of buying any welding machine with
>>>>>modern electronics in it. Little teeny, fragile chips and big 
>>>>>surging
>>>>>and sputtering electro-magnetic fields...what a combination!
>>>>>How are we gonna get replacement chips for them when they are 20
>>>>>years old?
>>>>>The main PC card for my Lincoln Idealarc 250/250 is no longer
>>>>>available. It's my newest welding machine.The chips for many 
>>>>>vehicles
>>>>>are no longer available. Look under the hood of so many machines and
>>>>>all there is to be seen is electronics and plastic.
>>>>>Looks like the prelude to a disaster.
>>>>>Another one.
>>>>>Course when it happens, we'll be well positioned.
>>>>>Only a few chips in my anvil.....Pete F
>>>>>
>>>>>Jerry Frost wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Egglayingwoolmilkpig? I don't even want a picture! <grin> Great 
>>>>>>term.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We're on the same page regarding doitall machines. Something that
>>>>>>does everything does nothing well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>While I don't know much about electricity I do understand there are
>>>>>>different types in ways I don't grasp. What I do know is I already
>>>>>>have a Lincoln Ranger 9, multi process welder that will indeed do
>>>>>>most welding processes but requires modules or additional pieces to
>>>>>>do some.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I was just thinking an electricity massaging unit might be an
>>>>>>alternative.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Frosty
>>>>>>-------------------------------
>>>>>>If it ain't forged
>>>>>>it ain't real.
>>>>>>Wrought iron is.
>>>>>>The FrostWorks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Meadow Lakes, AK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.artmetalradio.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>From: "Ries Niemi" <rniemi at fidalgo.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am not a big fan of "all in one" designs for anything- the combo
>>>>>>>brake/shear/rolls are garbage, the lathe/milling machines are 
>>>>>>>crap,
>>>>>>>the shopsmith is an amusing idea that does nothing well-
>>>>>>>But the closest I come is my inverter welder- it will run a mig
>>>>>>>wire feeder head, tig weld, or stick weld, all better than the
>>>>>>>older, standalone machines I also have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But, and its a big but- even though it all looks alike- there are
>>>>>>>different types of electricity- and what you need for welding- my
>>>>>>>tig inverter is usually putting out 170 amps at 25 volts or so- is
>>>>>>>drastically different than what you would need for a induction
>>>>>>>forge. Cant remember Grants explanation of the output, but its
>>>>>>>night and day from what a tig welder puts out.
>>>>>>>It would be kinda like saying my lawnmower and my Cat D9 are both
>>>>>>>powered by internal combustion engines, so why not combine the
>>>>>>>functions of the two?
>>>>>>>Yes, it could probably be done- and it would do each job worse,
>>>>>>>cost more, and have inherent design flaws that are just about
>>>>>>>insurmountable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The germans have a word for this- they would call it an
>>>>>>>"egglayingwoolmilkpig"-  something that tries to do everything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am all for buying an inverter power supply- but so far, the only
>>>>>>>ones that both weld and plasma cut are funky no name chinese
>>>>>>>imports- and they dont have either Grant Sarver, or Kaynes 
>>>>>>>standing
>>>>>>>behind them.
>>>>>>>I will buy a no name chinese induction forge from Grant, but not
>>>>>>>from some guy on ebay who cant tell an oscilloscope from a
>>>>>>>stethescope.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My welders are either red or blue. They work, parts are available,
>>>>>>>most are made in the USA- (all millers, most lincolns).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Experiments are fine for hor d'ourves- not for welders.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ries
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>>password:  anvil
>>>>>>___________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
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>>
>>
> 
> Ries Niemi
> Industrial Artist
> 
> http://www.RiesNiemi.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
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> 
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