[TheForge] Natural gas burner?

Tue Apr 25 16:38:46 EDT 2006

Rick,
I was just being playful and didn't see anything to make me tense with your
first post. George is not unique, but he would definitely qualify as rare.
Starbucks it is then, whenever you can. I am planning a driving trip down to
Arizona, over to the coast, and back to Seattle in August, and might be
closer to you?

For the last two years I have been restating my view that "no one shoe fits
all," desiring always that craft equipment choices should expand. If your
forge is meant to be permanently mounted, converting it to gas is a good
idea. If it was meant to be portable, you might want to consider building an
NG forge and keeping the one you already have for demonstrations and on-site
work projects.

It is not just a question of preserving the furnace. You could easily find
that with NG flames, you want to design and build your furnace from scratch.
I would be happy to give pointers on desirable design changes and how to
accomplish them. Frosty and others would probably like to contribute also.

The nature of gun (fan-blown) NG furnaces allows pretty simple igniters to
be used. You can find a number of them and very valuable technical
discussions on the Ward Burner Systems web site: http://www.wardburner.com/ 
They weren't needed for the equipment featured in Gas Burners, nor were they
likely to survive the intense flames my tube burners produce. For gun
burners, I would not think of doing without them.

It is very likely that I will write a pamphlet on fan-blow equipment for
Jack, featuring a couple of new equipment designs, next year. Apparently,
the back of my mind won't shut up and give me any peace until I do :-)
Mikey 

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Rick Korinek
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 4:33 AM
To: 'Sponsored by ABANA'
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Natural gas burner?

Mickey,
I was trying to provide some information about how to adjust for switching
to natural gas from propane.  The main thing most people have to contend
with is coming up with a way to use NG at 1/4 to 2 psi.  George is in the
unique position of being able to use NG at higher pressures.

BTW, I will be converting my propane-fired gas forge to NG in the near
future.  I already have gas piped to the forge at 2 psi--the highest the gas
company will allow.  I plan to use some of the off-the-shelf products you
mention to control the burner and add the safety features they offer such as
blower air proving and flame monitoring.  I am already using a ribbon burner
which provides a very nice linear flame.  The amazing thing is how
inexpensive the standard products are.  I think I have less than $350 in for
the gas valve, pilot control module, ignitor, flame rod and blower.  (It
also uses a 24v transformer and relay.  If I can find a way to position an
ignitor so that it does not burn up during normal operation, it will have an
automatic pilot and should be able to run automatically on an on-off switch.

Would love to meet you at a Starbucks, but getting to Seattle this summer
looks like a long shot right now.

-Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Mike Porter
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:24 PM
To: 'Sponsored by ABANA'
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Natural gas burner?

Rick,

Zo, you weeshez to push ze poor Old Doctor Frankenzeburner down ze zlippery
zlope of ze "well known factez" do you, my verry zlippery friend? What can
we zay to ziz thing, eh?

So far, I have found well known facts, like beauty, to be strictly in the
eye of the beholder. During six years of checking them on the Net, they have
changed, more than once. 'Official' sources are not above suspicion in that
department. In the first place, the lower energy content of a cubic foot of
methane compared to that of propane is offset a lot by the smaller amount of
air it must heat during combustion, 78% of which is "dead weight" energy
wise (at sea level--this is only an approximation and may not strictly apply
to heavily polluted areas, nor in the presence of heavy breathers--let me
check with the legal staff and get back to you on that).

The figures you quoted are favorites for convincing the gullible that
propane is a "good buy" economically compared to methane, a position I have
not argued for, even on my manic days :)

So, therefore, with full inconsequences kept firmly "out of my mind," I
would like to point out that: NG is way cheaper, can be enriched with minor
amounts of oxygen for about the fuel difference $$$ and has all manner of
safety approved equipment available for it to make the fire department and
your insurance company less unhappy.

However, none of the equipment is cheap, let alone free, and once installed
your tools are decidedly NOT portable. These "are the facts" as I see them,
and anyone who disagrees with me can arrange to meet at dawn on the field of
honor. I, on the other hand do not promise to show up as Starbucks is much
more appealing when arising so early, and has pretty girls rather than blood
to view.

If I'd known as much six years ago as I've learned since, Gas Burners might
as easily have featured natural gas equipment, and everyone who needed
condensed heat for highly portable tooling would be among the disaffected,
instead of ze zly zecret agent of ze Gaz Company. Ha! Nobodee can fool wiz
ze Inzpector Cluelezz! You ze my leetle trap now zat eet iz too late, do you
not?

Frosty had the right idea when he wrote that "All this is interesting but
you're going to tune your burners just the same way regardless. You'll do it
by eye and effect."

To put it brutally, those interested in results will go on working to get
them, and those who want to win arguments will continue to stand on shifting
sand while quoting "the facts." I have found shifting sand to be kinda
sucky, and results to be satisfyingly substantial :-) 

Now ze poor Old Doctor Frankenzeburner muzt go 
and pull ze diabolical weedz from ze garden, no?
Ozerwize ze bozz, she weel clue heem in pretty good!

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Rick Korinek
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 4:46 PM
To: 'Sponsored by ABANA'
Subject: RE: [TheForge] Natural gas burner?

The energy content of each fuel is: 

natural gas  1000 btu per cubic foot (approximately, and at STP)
propane	 2,500 btu per cubic foot

Assuming you will use the same pressure, the cross-sectional size of the
orifice needs to be 2.5 times as big.  Note that does not mean doubling the
diameter of the hole.  Area = Pi r*r.

You will also need to decrease the combustion air by about half.  The amount
of air to burn 1 cubic foot of NG is 10, for propane it is 24 cubic feet.

Sound right to you, Mike Porter?

-Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry Frost
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 6:15 PM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Natural gas burner?

You'll need a larger orifice in the jet and a regulator. You'll need to 
tinker with the orifice size but it'll work just fine.

Frosty
-------------------------------
If it ain't forged
it ain't real.
Wrought iron is.
The FrostWorks

Meadow Lakes, AK.

http://www.artmetalradio.com/

From: "G. Watts" <ironworker at cox.net>

>  Hey gang, this one's mostly for Mikey, but anyone's welcome to chime 
> in...
> I recently scored a unit on ebay that will compress natual gas from the
> house line into cylinders at about 275 psi.(item number 7605197382 which I
> think is still available for perusal if you search for the  number on 
> ebay).
> I've tried it out with a Victor torch with the correct tips and it works
> well for cutting.
>  I've heard questions asked and answered before relating to natural gas as
> a viable gas forge fuel, but never under the premise that the natural gas
> would be available under higher pressure.  So...what modifications would 
> you
> suggest to switch my propane forge over to natural gas?  Larger fuel
> orifice?  BTW - it's a homemade sidearm burner.  And if the conversion or
> different burner style is covered in the book, by all means say so and 
> I'll
> gladly order it!
> Thanks all.
> George.
>

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