[TheForge] Was FAQ - now Scrollwork & Fixtures

[Mike Porter]

Jeff
There is enough here to be answered part by part, so I will write between
you comments.
Mky

-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Polaski
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 11:34 AM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: [TheForge] Was FAQ - now Scrollwork & Fixtures

Mike, I'm all for shortening the learning curve for novices... I'm
pretty much one myself, and my time for metalwork is unfortunately
limited, what with a regular job and kid and life and all. (I really
Wish I was back in school again, when I hand much more free time...)

Don't let your wife see this! [Mike Porter]  

As for using jigs and benders, at least as far as novices go, don't you
think it's better to show how to do it all by hand first, and then
"progress" to jigs and benders?

We already have the British COSIRA books available for free download from
their web site (although the second text, "Forms, Production, and Assembly"
is too valuable for a serious smith not to buy used). If this material can't
teach novices all about hand wrought ironwork, something is very wrong. I
only propose to show fixtures that take hand wrought to a more lucrative
level, not to replace it in any way. [Mike Porter] 


Could you elaborate a little on cold scrollwork... I've been doing all
my smithing hot, except for some sheet metal work and a little bit of
repousse.

I tend to think of "cold scrolling" as synonymous with "crap", even
though it's not necessarily so... I *have* seen a few cold scrolls that
are very beautiful. (There's one door in particular, in Santa Ana near
First Street that is all cold scroll work, and is one of the nicest
looking doors I've ever seen. I need to go back and take some
pictures...) It's just that 99.9% of all the cold scrolls are crap.

No, I won't elaborate on the subject of cold bent scrollwork; its time is
past. The best of it was pretty uninspired, and the overwhelming majority of
it was well described by you, and a multitude of others, as c**p. It would
be simple for those who feel stubborn to use the scroll benders for cold
work, but when they end up sorry it won't be because I helped tempt them
there. Keep on doing your work hot, but I would love to see a photo of the
old door just as a walk down memory lane. [Mike Porter]  
 

PS, I don't think of your theory of art as "ruthless" (there's plenty of
"ruth" in it), just pragmatic. I tend to the exact same view.

Well, perhaps not "my" theory. Likely, most people who stay in business end
up with pretty much the same point of view. [Mike Porter] 
 

PPS, are there any particularly notable pieces of metalwork in Orange
County, or even the Southern California area anyone would recommend
taking a look at? I take pictures of metal work I come across, and I'd
like to go see anything in the area.

The only stuff in my day was at the amusement park. There was more in L.A.,
but I didn't play there. Some pretty nice work existed in Laguna Beach, but
it was on v-e-r-y private properties. You can find good work in southern
cal., but you need to take a winnowing approach. There was supposed to be
some excellent work coming out of a shop owned by a metal sculptor who
taught at Fullerton J.C. in the sixties, for instance. Old newspaper
features on houses of the rich and infamous would make another good
informational stream to pan. The only two exciting things I saw during
fifteen years of ornamental iron work were a magazine article on British Art
Deco ornamental ironwork before World War Two (plan to mine that magic
stream next year while in England), and some hand wrought roses done in
sheet metal. The roses were slathered all over with brazing rod and mounted
over black velour backgrounds in picture frames (utterly horrible), but they
were buds and tea roses (standard florist roses); high centered urn-shaped
with pointed petals--not cabbage roses--which are all I can find plans for
now. If anyone knows were to find information on fabricating tea roses,
please speak up. [Mike Porter] 


Jeff Polaski
Research and Graduate Studies Webmaster
University of California, Irvine
http://www.rgs.uci.edu/
949.824.6363
-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Mike Porter
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 12:00 PM
To: 'Sponsored by ABANA'
Subject: RE: [TheForge] FAQ

Frosty,
Re: "Re: D. Neither. No. Go sift clinker."
Go sift clinker? LOL big time; wish I'd said that :-)

You wrote:
"I love scrolls, hate bender turned scrolls and can turn one by hand
about
as 
fast as the machine can. One thing wrong with the benders is the dies 
usually suck. Of course the biggest sin of bender turned scrolls is the 
result of the fabricator NOT finishing the job."

OK, we both love scrolls and could very well have diametrically opposing
views on how to make them. My own background comes from growing up in
Southern California ornamental iron shops. We did all scrollwork cold,
and
while those same shops turned out the best work in Orange County at that
time (late fifties through the sixties), I had already seen better
examples
of cold scrollwork. Knotts Berry Farm, an amusement center in Buena
Park,
used to have (may still but not sure) incredible examples of first rate
heavy 'Spanish' ironwork. It was supposedly all cold worked, but cold
worked
German style; monster air hammers, etc.

I have used RAM scroll benders, which are the only commercially made
units
worth anything IMHO. Unfortunately, the inventor's patent ran out in the
sixties and imitators undercut his prices, so he retired. There is still
a
comparable machine built today, but at a laughably high price and built
for
column scrolls, which are out of date. Every other commercial scroll
bender,
including today's German built offerings, makes me giggle. I was also
fortunate enough to be taught to built and use vertical hand scroll
benders
for miniature scrolls used in candle holders and chandeliers. The
largest
single order was eleven hundred candle holders containing eight scrolled
ends each, along with other decorations. It was strictly commercial
work,
not art, but it had to be good quality.

Where does art end and everything else begin? Some say it is in the
heart of
the craftsman, and others make up all kinds of rules (which they
themselves
tend to fudge in private). My own theory is more ruthless of course. If
the
customer's hand shakes with excitement when reaching for the checkbook,
or
if the customer looks at the work and immediately starts negotiating
price
(this ploy usually includes faintly disparaging remarks carefully kept
below
the craftsman's irritation level, but designed to mask their excitement)
confidence in your work can't be very far from the mark.

Why not take the best of both worlds, and combine hot work with better
fixtures? Scrollwork is hot formed around crude scroll forms by most
smiths.
Yes, it can be completely worked by hand by anyone who has mastered the
techniques, but my own concern always lies with shortening the learning
curve for novices. If you want to continue the discussion, and if there
is a
healthy interest in it, I'm willing to release my book notes on this
subject, and pursue the best methods of building scroll benders
on-group. It
could then end up as part of the group's FAQ section, with all
viewpoints
represented in an educational manner. If not, that's OK too :)
Mikey
 
-----Original Message-----
From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry Frost
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 5:45 PM
To: Sponsored by ABANA
Subject: Re: [TheForge] FAQ

Hmmmm. Guess I'll have to be more contentious next time. <sigh>

I'm not bored with burners, I just hit on a combo that works more than
well 
enough for my purposes. Of course, I've never built two the same and I
don't

have a decent place to work yet. Most importantly I didn't write a book.

<grin>

I adopted the term "gun" for blower driven burners from furnace and navy

boiler room guys.

For your first talking point, parts A-C. If you're over working yourself

doing finish work on the anvil, you need more practice doing the rough
work.

A little more rebound or how to get it ain't going to do you any good.

Re: D. Neither. No. Go sift clinker.

I love scrolls, hate bender turned scrolls and can turn one by hand
about as

fast as the machine can. One thing wrong with the benders is the dies 
usually suck. Of course the biggest sin of bender turned scrolls is the 
result of the fabricator NOT finishing the job.

Self contained power hammers is always a good topic but I think I've
done 
about all I can without putting metal together and giving it a try.

Frosty
-------------------------------
If it ain't forged
it ain't real.
Wrought iron is.
The FrostWorks

Meadow Lakes, AK.

http://www.artmetalradio.com/

From: "Mike Porter" <michael.a.porter at comcast.net>


> Jerry,
> I don't think a full blown debate about tooling is possible, as we are

> both
> pretty ruthless on the subject. "It is what it is" isn't an attitude
that
> allows mental moss to grow thick. The best we can hope for is
momentary
> differences of opinion while one of us comes up to speed. It would be
> possible to work up a weak debate about naturally aspirated burners if
we
> weren't both pretty bored with the subject.
>
>
> Gun burners, to use your term (where does it come from?) or fan blown
(to
> stay on the conservative side until I know your term is better) are of

> more
> interest to me, equipment wise. Various oxy-fuels and compressed air 
> torches
> are my main interest hand-tool wise.  :)
>
> On the other hand, we could hold a public brainstorming on some piece
of
> blacksmith equipment. A new forge design, scroll benders, the
theoretical
> limits of anvil design? Here's a question: given that novices don't
want 
> to
> make the commitment to a good enough anvil to give proper spring-back,
and
> given that it isn't always convenient to use an anvil for everything
we 
> wish
> to shape, and given that--at times--a soft support material is an aid 
> during
> finish work, but help (spring-back) is always useful to prevent
overwork
> then...
>
> To design a limited application spring system nearly as efficient as a

> high
> quality anvil, would you:
> (A) Put the spring in the hammer handle (spring handle peening
hammers?)
> (B) Put a powerful (ex. coil spring from a car) spring in a support
column
> below the soft material
> (C) Do both at different times as appropriate
> (D) Do neither because "everybody knows" that only a high quality
anvil is
> any good to a smith. Impudent minds want to know :)
>
> Scroll benders could be fun, but would likely turn into about a year
long
> discussion, what with equipment building to prove our points (too much

> work
> without getting paid for it, or a valuable chance to refine 
> understanding?)
> Are scrolls even worth talking about anymore? I love scrolls but most 
> people
> get hives at the very thought of them after fifty years of cheap junk
> scrolls flooding the market. On the other hand, when I do simple 
> geometrical
> designs people get all excited (where's the justice in such perverse
> reactions? Why ask why? Ah, well. Probably no point in even discussing
> picket twisting. Water-dip painting maybe?
> Mikey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:theforge-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry Frost
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:14 PM
> To: Sponsored by ABANA
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] FAQ
>
> Drats! How are we ever going to have a debate?
>
> Diffusers are flame shapers, my old Johnson 133a has them. In the
Johnson,
> the A:F mix is manifolded to four burner nozzles near the bottom of
the
> firebox. The nozzles are flat rectangular flares that cause the flame
to 
> fan
>
> across the bottom of the forge.
>
> With a blower driving the flame you can make the nozzles all kinds of
> shapes. I've seen pics of needle flames, broad short cones and
vortices.
> While it isn't impossible to make these things work with naturally 
> aspirated
>
> burners it's trickier. Guns are positive pressure and naturally
aspirated
> are negative pressure devices. So, if somebody tells you naturally 
> aspirated
>
> burners suck you can tell them their gun burners blow. <grin>
>
> Pick a simple conical diffuser for instance. This is just an
exagerated
> version of the burner flares being used to enhance N/A burners. An
> exagerated cone diffuser will increase the draw of the burner 
> exponentially,
>
> making it harder to get a proper burn. On top of that an increase
(flare)
> greater than 1:12 makes turbulence that makes tuning a lot harder.
>
> Most naturally aspirated burners with diffusers are purpose built. A 
> Fisher
> burner being a perfect example. The Fisher burner was designed to make
a
> very hot close flame over a wide area. It's tube is tapered over it's 
> entire
>
> length from the throat to a point just below the nozzle where the body
> enlarges well more than the 1:12 ratio. Then it's capped by a
perforated
> dome. The flame of a Fisher burner is (as I recall) only about 1/2"
high,
> intense blue with little feathering. It spreads across the entire dome
in 
> a
> very uniform way.
>
> There's a burner diffuser in use that's been mentioned here a few
times in
> conjunction with gun burners. It's a bunch of burner nozzles in an
array
> made by drilling or casting a grid of small holes in a block. A burner

> block
>
> maybe? A:F is fed into the block under pressure and it makes a wide
even
> "wall" of flame in the forge.
>
> Anyway, gun burners handle different diffusers better than naturally
> aspirated burners do.
>
> Frosty
> -------------------------------
> If it ain't forged
> it ain't real.
> Wrought iron is.
> The FrostWorks
>
> Meadow Lakes, AK.
>
> http://www.artmetalradio.com/
>
> From: "Mike Porter" <michael.a.porter at comcast.net>
>
>
>> Well, I'm not sure there's anything here to disagree with. When 
>> discussing
>> dragon's breath, I'm referring to the end result exiting the forge.
That
>> is
>> not the same as the high velocity flame entering the equipment from a
>> naturally aspirated burner. I like to design forges and furnaces so
that
>> that furious little flame is pretty well spent and puny by the time
it
>> exits
>> :-) Tell us more about diffusers please; greedy minds want to know.
>> Mikey
>> P.S. "Pandora's Tums...catchy. Now all I need is a text to go with it
:)
>>
>
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