[TheForge] Re: Test mail

Fri Nov 11 13:44:39 EST 2005

Ok thanks guys.. it seems that I lost something in the translation
from Finnish into English.. or infact I was misled. But your
explanations will now assist me in NOT looking like a semi informed
idiot... more like an informed one..LOL

Stephen

On 11/11/05, Chris Kilpatrick <crimsonkil at lycos.com> wrote:
> Nothing compresses!!!  large grains become several smaller grains, like breaking a boulder into a bunch of rocks!  It is the grain edges that provide ductility and in part, toughness.  the smaller the grains, the more grain edges you have per unit volume, the tougher the steel!!!
>
> -Chris K.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Viola" <stephen.viola at gmail.com>
> To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Re: Test mail
> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:18:06 +0200
>
> >
> > Yep clear as compressed mud atoms ;oP
> > So if I understand correctly, its the 'matter' (ie, carbon)
> > surrounding these tiny crystals that can compress, but the atoms that
> > form these crystals can not.
> >
> > or is it that the atoms that form these crystals get closer together
> > (reducing the size of the crystals) making the piece harder.
> >
> > sorry for making an issue of this it's just that i would like to know.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > On 11/11/05, Steve Smith <sos at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> > >  From somewhere I remember that packing might have been important when
> > > there was lots of slag in the metal, but doesn't do anything with modern
> > > steels. No reference, sorry.
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > Bruce Freeman wrote:
> > >
> > > > (I should have read both these postings before responding.)
> > > >
> > > > Yes, hammering springs may harden them.  I am not a
> > > metalurgist, so I won't try to explain why that works.  I can
> > > give a lable for it, "work hardening", but that is not an
> > > explanation.
> > > >
> > > > However, I AM a chemist and have taken the usual courses in
> > > physics.  NO WAY you can compress atoms or even metal grains
> > > (tiny crystals within a solid metal) with a hammer.
> > > >
> > > >>From the small amount of metallurgical reading I have done, I
> > > believe I recall correctly that you CAN break, distort or
> > > otherwise stress metal grains with a hammer.  Annealing is the
> > > process of removing such stresses by application of heat (and,
> > > for steel, by slow cooling - - which is not necessary for pure
> > > iron or other metals).  Anyway, it seems that these small,
> > > distorted crystals are HARD.  Hence, hammering leads to hardness.
> > >  (I defer to correction in this interpretation to any metalurgist
> > > lurking.)
> > > >
> > > > Steel is different in that the carbon content radically changes
> > > its properties relative to the pure iron metal.  Tiny crystals
> > > can arise in steel by heating and quenching.  Since these tiny
> > > crystals impart hardness to the metal, a "simple" means of
> > > hardening the metal is available.  (This judges work hardening as
> > > "not simple" - clearly a judgment call.)
> > > >
> > > > Hope this helps.
> > > >
> > > > Bruce
> > > > NJ
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>>>stephen.viola at gmail.com 11/11/2005 2:25:21 AM >>>
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure about the scientific detail, but I do know that way back
> > > > when, the making of springs for buggies and carriages were hammered
> > > > hard and not heat treated. So there must be some truth to the
> > > > compacting of grain or atoms. Blacksmiths have been doing it for
> > > > centuries. At college we are taught that the compression of atoms
> > > > occur when hammered. Thats not to say that other material is
> > > > displaced, just that there seems to be some kind of allowance for the
> > > > metal to become harder with the compression. Like I said I don't know
> > > > the scientific blah blah, but thats the understanding I have.
> > > >
> > > > Stephen (Finland)
> > > >
> > > > On 11/11/05, Erik Gutfeldt <erikg at apple.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>On Oct 31, 2005, at 4:59 AM, Bruce Freeman wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>I do vaguely remember his discussion about "packing the edge" of a
> > > >>>knife.  Pure nonsense.
> > > >>
> > > >>I thought the metallurgical effect of "packing" was to reduce grain
> > > >>size.
> > > >>
> > > >>Erik
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> > > >>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > > >>theforge mail list group photo site is
> > > >>http://www.photoaccess.com
> > > >>Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> > > >>password:  anvil
> > > >>___________
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> > > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > > > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> > > > password:  anvil
> > > > ___________
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> > > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > > > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> > > > password:  anvil
> > > > ___________
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> > > password:  anvil
> > > ___________
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> > password:  anvil
> > ___________
>
>
>
> It is I who formed the blacksmith,
> who fans the flame into a fire and
> fashions a weapon fit for it's work.
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
>
> Search for businesses by name, location, or phone number.  -Lycos Yellow Pages
>
> http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10
>
> _______________________________________________
> Manage membership or unsubscribe at:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> theforge mail list group photo site is
> http://www.photoaccess.com
> Login:  blacksmithblacksmith at hotmail.com
> password:  anvil
> ___________
>
>
>