[TheForge] OT biodiesel

Mon May 30 17:57:09 EDT 2005

In a message dated 5/30/2005 11:21:16 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
robi5515 at bellsouth.net writes:

Hey  Michael,
My question isn't simple curiosity, I'm trying to use atmospheric  burners to
easily reach welding heat for my Damascus.
Measuring the temp  isn't the problem. I have a calibrated.optical pyrometer.
$125 E-Bay that  reads to 3200 F
Now, I'm jealous, Chuck.
Is this the kind with a comparator lamp? How easy is it  to use? Can I come 
over and play? Where do you live? Oh darn! Bellsouth;that  doesn't sound close. 
It does sound like you're a man with real problems though,  so let's see what 
can be done.

My  forge is lined with inswool HTZ 8# rated for 2700 F and the wool is
coated  with Satenite rated for 3200 F.
Well,  you did the job right. However, I would  recommend a further light 
coating of water separated ITC #100 as your  final layer (the colloidal zirconia 
particles stay in suspension,  and the large particles make mud on the bottom 
of a glass jar--not real high  tech :). zirconia reflects "up to 95% of IR," 
but "up to" can be as low as sixty  percent with larger particles. How much 
your sealer reflects I just don't know.  I do know that Larry Zoeller told me 
that the Plastix people told him their  product compared favoribly with ITC #100, 
and I do also know that the trick I  just shared with you will beat 
un-separated ITC #100 hands  down.

I'm running 3  3/4" "T-Rex" burners that Ron Reil  says are  twice as
efficient as his burners.

Yes, but twice as efficient is not the same as twice  as hot. As I remember 
it, they are about twenty to twenty-five percent hotter,  while also being far 
more economical to run. And I think I remember them pretty  well :)

Depending on the ambient temperature I can get the forge to about 2450F  on a
good day.
If I switch out the atmospheric burners and substitute 1  blown burner I can
reach 2800 F in the same forge.

OK, time for the nitty-gritty discussion to  begin:
If you can get the heat you want with a blown burner,  why do you still want 
to use naturally aspirated burners? I can only think  of two possibilities. 
Either you don't care for the dragon's breath problem, or  you want a portable 
forge. Dragon's breath can be foiled by using a kiln shelf  baffle system 
placed a few inches beyond the forge opening. You can  hinge it to swing up and out 
of way, in order to move your stock, or else  build a guillotine style system 
(foot operated) to lift the baffle straight up,  then lower it down on the 
next piece of stock. The same reflective coating is  recommended here too. Glass 
blowers have been using similar reflective door  systems quite successfully 
for decades. Boy howdy; it's a good thing I'm  not planning any more Gas Burner 
books--this is good stuff you're  getting!
    As to portable, well you're  pretty well stuck with naturally aspirated 
burners for that one. Of course, you  could use a gas engine to run a 
compressor, but the cure sounds worse than the  disease. So, what to do about the 
burners? There are better burners than the  hybrids, but I just don't think that is 
your problem. What sounds like the heart  of your problem is, the number of 
burners. It is difficult to get multiple  burners to run efficiently in a 
forge. I would say the reason you get more heat  with a fan blown system is that 
you have a back pressure  problem.
        Ron  Reil once told me that a friend of his used three separate 
portable forges with  single burners, instead of a single forge with three burners, 
by placing them  close together. This gave the guy sufficient exhaust to 
avoid back pressure  without losing too much heat in the material being worked on. 
I always thought  this to be one smart plan.
    Of course, you probably want to  salvage the forge you've already built. 
There are choices here to. You can cut  in additional exhausts in the far wall 
(probably two of them, spaced equally  between the three flames), or you can 
open up your end exhausts and depend on  heat reflection from baffles to keep 
the forge from super cooling. The main  thing you need on the forge ends is a 
ridge (between 1" minimum and 2" maximum  width will still compress the flame 
path into a good spiral). The baffles  reflect back IR heat loss, which is not 
to be under estimated, and they can be  moved in close and farther out, while 
you check performance, before making  their positions permanent. 

At the BBS in April  I measured the output of the Riel burner  on  the
demonstrators propane forge, when  Mardi  Mesheja was  unsuccessfully
attempting the weld up TI Damascus.

What is TI Damascus? See there? I don't mind admitting  my own ignorance.

The burner maxed out at 2300 F. The forge would only reach 2600 F  after
blowing compressed air into the burner bell.

Or she could have changed the bell out for a 2 X 3/4 bell, installed a  
tapered .035 MIG tip in the cross pipe and jumped the heat just as much. That  
trick was posted on Ron's sight about five years ago (by  me).
Chuck

----- Original Message ----- 
From:  <Keporter at aol.com>
To: <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent:  Monday, May 30, 2005 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] OT  biodiesel

In a message dated 5/30/2005 8:17:57 A.M. Pacific  Standard Time,
robi5515 at bellsouth.net writes:

I'd like to  hear  from anyone who uses an atmospheric propane burner of any
design that   actually has accurately measured a forge temperature hotter  
than
2500  F-
with out usig auxilliary O2,  compresser air  or a blower  boost.
Chuck

Chuck
Accurately measured  with what? If you're looking for scientific proof,  I
don't think you're  going to find a blacksmith investing in that kind of
equipment out of simple  curiosity. Even my own curiosity doesn't cover that 
kind of
money. An IR  thermometer costs about $100 for a thousand degree range;  by
sixteen  hundred degrees the unit is $500. Whatever you plan to   measure
twenty-five hundred degrees with is going to be quite expensive.  I  believe 
at that heat
you will be dealing with UV sensors attached  to  computers running special
software. You could order a Tempilstiks®  marker crayon, but they only go up 
to
2500--not beyond it. Then, there  would be  the problem of shielding it from
the flame...
However, you can find a fellow casting chrome steel  (that takes  more
like 2800 degrees to reach pouring temperature) in a furnace  run  with 
nothing
more than an old fashion Reil type burner. You can look it  up  on his web 
site).
Most blacksmiths use ceramic fiber in their  forges, which  is only rated to
2300; if you're looking to find out  anything about higher  temperatures, you
need to involve your self with  foundry work; try Hobbicast,  (aYahoo 
newsgroup).
Michael  Porter
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