[TheForge] Re: guardrails and handrails
Ralph Sproul
brhlbsmt at mcttelecom.com
Tue Sep 14 21:24:39 EDT 2004
Ray and Roger, I also bid by the linear foot for what I figure it
will take me to do the job installed..... I really never bid different
for slope or level, then again I haven't tried to do angled mortise and
tenons on a slope. I either weld or drill and tap straight, then cut the
angle and run the fastener in from the top of the sloped rail into a counter
sunk hole.
Around here, we are still doing the 5" space requirement - I would
definitely like to see those codes your talking about, as we used to have a
4" requirement, then it went back to 5" about two year ago. That's pretty
much from me asking the inspectors, but I make it a point to check in the
area about what they want prior to building anything. One place wanted 4"
so I gave it to them. Looked a lot like a set of jail house bars.
I'm still getting away with hooks and lambs tounges on hand rails
around here, but this is still New Hampshire and most of my work is rural -
so unless someone is looking for a certificate of occupancy, the chance of
an inspection is rare. Most of my railing calls lately have been insurance
companies out inspecting properties and requiring home owners to put rails
on exterior and interior stairs. They haven't been demanding of baulisters
on rails with over a 30" drop off, and have usually seen a post and top rail
and said "fine" - we'll continue your coverage. I've had about 8 calls for
railings for this reason, and it must be a new way to generate revenue and
get rid of risk if that many people have called me in a year for that
reason.
I once read an architectural standards book that wanted rails for
elementary schools at 28", mid schools at 30-32", and high school,
residence and commercial to be 34-36" in height. The guard rail height has
most often been called for by inspectors is 42". Guard rail requirements on
stairs - the hand rail is set inside by at least 1 3/4" offset, and proper
support for a rail be it guard rail or hand rail should be strong enough
that a 200 lb person can't bend it if falling and hanging on to it....... I
think that's called a deflection or side flex test.......how they figure
that I don't know, but I shoot for overbuilding in all cases to not give
them a chance to bitch me out.
I tend to use 1" sqaure posts, and 3/4 x 1 1/2 or 2" flat for top
rails with hooks forged on the ends. I tend to continue my rail onto a
landing by 9 inches to give a person a purchase on it before heading down
the stairs.
I haven't had the opportunity to do wrap around landings for the
continuous rail thing, but I have had folks ask for returns to the wall on
exterior pipe or fabed rails.......which I'm trying to stay away from
generic footage of butt ugly rails to turn a dollar. If it doesn't have
some sort of appealing design or foring to it, I'd rather stay away from it
until I'm real hungry.
I'm also finding the competition between fabricators lately with the
steel prices up so high to be rather annoying. I don't feel like cutting my
prices to keep railing costs down to the customers expectations while the
steel companies feel they can double their prices and get away with it. I'd
rather let 20 guys with welders in the back of their pickups bid on the new
library or town rails that demand and spec out pipe and plug in sockets with
straight pickets.......and bleah, bleah, woof, woof..........and all those
other things I dont' really want to score more jobs from fine examples of
that kind of work.
So far I've done 18 railings this year, and have orders for three
more, and just bid two more before the end of the year. People like the
forged/fab and can somewhat afford it when they see the alternatives for
about 30-50% less(pipe and moulded cap rail)........... and on occassion
some people will pay me to do totally traditional rails (which is real rare
in the country side where I live, but more folks are moving in from the city
and making a difference in my customer base and what they can afford).
Hey, pretty soon they'll slick this place right up and I'll have to move
out, but I can turn a few dollars during the transition.......so I can
afford to move.
And Ray - your right.......... I like the garden crowd - much less
rules, and they appreciate a nice trellis, arch, sculpture, or gate.
Now that I'm becoming that little old craftsman with the grey hair
and spectacles.............I like forging the larger stuff so I can see it.
That reputation of the talented old craftsman isn't what I'd call
character.........it's a pain in the ass wearing reading glasses to see all
that little shit. I can still see railings and trellis parts. :-)
Roger if you find a good source of that code, please share it, as I
should at least know what they expect to see.
Ralph
----- Original Message -----
From: <debmiller at fuse.net>
To: "Sponsored by ABANA" <theforge at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Re: guardrails and handrails
> My experience on code requirements has varied wildly. Come inspectors have
allowed breaks in the rail at transitions, most require continuous rail.
>
> Grab rails have all required returns to the wall without exception lately,
eliminating the option of cool lambs tongues or other decorative end
treatments.
>
> Pitched rail on open end tread has also varied. Some builders have had me
install balusters to each tread to meet code, others have had me install
with a pitched bottom rail leaving an opening at each tread over the 4"
rule.
>
> Custom rails that have been fabricated from non-traditional materials for
cap rail have also been viewed unfavorably some times by inspectors.
>
> They like to see the "good ol' molded cap" rail, but if you use pipe, or
flat stock they get very particular about complying with code requirements
on width and thickness.
>
> Some have used a 4" ball and checked every possible opening on the rail
some have allowed gaping holes to pass.
>
> Around here it seems to be related to the interaction between the builders
and the inspectors. I always start of each railing job defining the code
requirements and basing the job on complying. If the builder or client wants
it done differently I have them sign a release and take full liability and
cost responsibility if changes are required.
>
> >From my experience I know why many people have gotten OUT of doing stair
railings. Between the code limits, clients who do not fully understand what
it takes to do iron right and the sticker shock of doing it right, I would
rather build table and sculpture.
>
> Ray Miller
> Cincinnati
> >
> > From: Roger Olsen <erik at methow.com>
> > Date: 2004/09/14 Tue AM 11:03:04 EDT
> > To: Sponsored by ABANA <theforge at mailman.qth.net>,
> > Art Metal <ArtMetal at wugate.wustl.edu>
> > Subject: [TheForge] Re: guardrails and handrails
> >
> > Hi Bruce,
> >
> > Yes, you are right, I am still out in Washington State but I believe the
> > UBC is nation wide and I am just looking for some clarification about
> > handrail returns and such as stated in the UBC.
> > Also would like to hear how other smiths approach the bidding process
for
> > handrails and guardrails, specifically horizontal runs when mixed with
> > stairs.
> >
> > Roger
> > ___________________
> >
> > Bruce Freeman wrote:
> >
> > > I suspect you got no responses because you know more about the
subject
> > > than anyone else currently monitoring this group. I have attended
> > > demonstrations in which professional architectural smiths have
discussed
> > > building codes and bidding, but I have no first hand knowledge.
> > >
> > > You might do better to ask this group for names and phone numbers of
> > > blacksmiths doing this sort of work. I could probably come up with
some
> > > myself (if you got a little more specific about the sort of work
you're
> > > talking about). Unfortunately, those I would know of would be on the
> > > east coast, and I believe you're in Washington state.
> > >
> > > Bruce
> > > NJ
> > >
> > > >>> erik at methow.com 9/14/2004 10:03:21 AM >>>
> > > I sent this in about a month or so ago. There were no responses which
> > > surprised me cuz there is often a few dozen responses with threads
> > > that
> > > have absolutely nothing to do with metal work. I thought maybe it
> > > never
> > > got through cyberspace so I am trying again.
> > > ____________________
> > >
> > > I have done maybe 8 guardrails, some on stairs, some on
> > > only
> > >
> > > horizontal, and some with both. Building railings on
> > > stairs
> > > has always
> > > been harder and involved a lot more time than on the
> > > horizontal but I
> > > never gave much thought to a percentage difference in cost
> > > from
> > > horizontal to angled. I had lunch with a smithing friend
> > > yesterday who
> > > does quite a few railings and he asked if I had heard of
> > > and
> > > do I bid my
> > > railing jobs by the method of figuring your bid on the
> > > horizontal and
> > > then double it for the angled. Have any of you heard of
> > > this? Do any
> > > of you have thoughts on time differences from building
> > > horizontal and
> > > angled and if you figure it into your bidding process
> > > somehow. I
> > > realize that different styles of joinery or design can have
> > > a
> > > difference
> > > but just generally speaking.
> > >
> > > Also do any of you have the UBC book? If so and you also
> > > have a scanner
> > > would you be willing to cut and paste them to me or maybe
> > > to
> > > the group?
> > > There seems to be some gray areas and although I have
> > > spoken
> > > with the
> > > inspector I would very much like a copy of the code. My
> > > county does
> > > follow the UBC and has no deviation from it when it comes
> > > to
> > > handrails
> > > and guardrails.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
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