[TheForge] Triangles

Thu May 6 03:18:01 2004

I remember that SN article. I think the researchers made some basic 
mistakes including using stainless steel as test pieces. Stainless seems 
to deal with sound quite differently than regular steel. Also, it seems 
to me that the steel drum notes  involve an odd sinusoidal flexing of 
the  center of each note area in a manner quite unlike other  bells and 
similar instruments and they appeared to have missed that part entirely. 
Too much expertese, not enough observation?
There, feel better Mike?

Dan Hayes wrote:

>Didactic and pedagogical? Sorry I came off that way. And I apologize if I
>offended anyone, which I think I might have since I seemed to have killed
>the thread. I really didn't mean to do that.
>
>Anyway, if you want something more entertaining, try this link:
>http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc98/10_10_98/bob2.htm
>It's about the metallurgy of Caribbean steel drums, and it does address the
>effect of carbon content and heat treatment on the sound of the drum.
>
>Dan
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
>On Behalf Of Michael H. Murphy
>Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 6:03 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: [TheForge] Triangles
>
>Dang! I though I was getting didactic and pedagogical.  But he's right;
>different steels have different qualities -- in malleability, hardness, and
>acoustics.
>
>I agree with researching it on the Web, for all kinds of ideas and
>techniques.  But it still doesn't count until you've actually put it
>together and listened to it.
>
>Mike Murphy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
>On Behalf Of Daniel T. Hayes
>Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 8:37 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: [TheForge] Triangles
>
>Bob,
>
>The acoustic properties of steels are affected by many factors, and
>"scientific proof", along with a lot of specific data is available if you
>know where to look. You might want to consider looking into a metallurgical
>reference book such as Metals Handbook or a text on ultrasonic inspection.
>
>The two acoustic properties that come to mind as major players in
>determining the sound of a triangle or bell are acoustic velocity
>(longitudinal/compression, transverse/shear and surface)and acoustic
>impedance. You can find this kind of data tabulated in metallurgical texts,
>and if you do a web search, I'm sure you could come up with a number of
>narrowly focused research papers on the subject. In any event, you'll find
>that carbon content, alloying elements, heat treatment and deformation/work
>(both cold and hot) all play significant roles. In each case, you'll find
>that the answer lies in how each of these factors affects the crystalline
>structure(s) of the metal. An FCC lattice can be expected to transmit sound
>differently from a BCC lattice or a highly strained martensitic structure,
>for example. Throw in the fact that most steels are a mixture of phases and
>the problem gets really complex. Acoustic impedance is probably the most
>complicated acoustic property of all. You're best bet is probably to
>research metallurgical texts for information on acoustic properties.
>
>Dan
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
>On Behalf Of [email protected]
>Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 7:48 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [TheForge] Triangles
>
>Thanks for the reply Steve. But what I am really
>interested in is the scientific proof that says that
>using higher carbon steel produces a different
>ring than lower carbon steel and also why quenching
>would affect the ring. These thoughts are often
>presented as a given. If the proof is that common
>it should be easy to show. Listening to various samples
>is  subjective.
>
>Bob
>____
>
>
>On May 4, 2004, at 5:55 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Bob, I think you have a very good point (in the absence of data at 
>>this end also). Hardening the steel affects yield point, not elastic 
>>bending.
>>
>>This should be pretty simple to try. I'd do it myself, but I'm still 
>>trying to get my chimney up on the new shop--still no forge here. If 
>>someone trys it, the listening test should be blind: a helper does the 
>>ringing of the triangles, and the listener doesn't know whether it is 
>>a hardened triangle or a soft one. Several (random) trials of each. 
>>Who's going to volunteer?
>>
>>Steve Smith
>>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Is it really the hardness or carbon content of the steel that changes
>>>the tone or is it the shape?
>>>I think the shape. Small differences between one triangle and another
>>>may change the tone but I think the tone is not affected by the carbon
>>>content or the quenching. Super or otherwise.
>>>This opinion is just an opinion. I have no actual data to confirm or 
>>>deny.
>>>If you do have actual data (not anecdotal) I would like to see it.
>>>Bob
>>>___________
>>>      
>>>
>>>>At 15:57 05/03/04, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Made a few triangles - I found that mild steel works
>>>>>fine, but you get a much better ring if you quench the
>>>>>corners in superquench. Really improves the tone and
>>>>>intensity.
>>>>>
>>>>>FWFaller
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>>theforge mail list group photo site is
>>>http://www.photoaccess.com
>>>Login:  [email protected]
>>>password:  anvil
>>>___________
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>>theforge mail list group photo site is
>>http://www.photoaccess.com
>>Login:  [email protected]
>>password:  anvil
>>___________
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>theforge mail list group photo site is
>http://www.photoaccess.com
>Login:  [email protected]
>password:  anvil
>___________
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>theforge mail list group photo site is
>http://www.photoaccess.com
>Login:  [email protected]
>password:  anvil
>___________
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>theforge mail list group photo site is
>http://www.photoaccess.com
>Login:  [email protected]
>password:  anvil
>___________
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
>theforge mail list group photo site is
>http://www.photoaccess.com
>Login:  [email protected]
>password:  anvil
>___________
>
>
>
>  
>