[TheForge] Vapor/Gas (Was: Building a propane forge)

[theforge@mailman.qth.net]

In a message dated 2/18/2004 1:57:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
jhusvar@neo.rr.com writes:
Keporter@aol.com wrote:
> Dave Brown
> Heritage Smithing
> Green Bay, WI
> That's some coffee, Dave. 
> Bruce
> I'll bet you've already read, Dave's list of propane quotes. I recognize 
the 
> sources as being the same I used. It begins to look as though I didn't pay 
> enough attention at the time (at least Dave saved me the trouble of looking 
them 
> up again--thanks Dave).
>   What I see laid out for review, is overwhelming support for your 
position, 
> and an undercurrent of confusing information. Why did they throw "vapor" 
into 
> the information stream at all? Why do some of the technical experts that 
other 
> guys on the group have quoted still insist on the "vapor" distinction? What 
> is the bottom line at the sources (propane industry) end?

Maybe a distinction without a difference as it's beginning to seem now. 
However, I've heard both terms used by propane plant employees and I 
really did think there's a difference.

Could be a terminology specific to workers in that trade. If they use 
both "gas" and "vapor," but define "vapor" as a mist to account for that 
appearance under some conditions, therein could lie the confusion. 
(Thanks to another poster for that idea.)

If something has different appearance in different conditions, it's not 
odd that separate words might be used to describe them, even though they 
are just different aspects of the same thing. (Kind of a trade jargon.)
E.g. You can see the vapor, but the gas is invisible.

> Now, I'm going to have to write these people myself! I really didn't want 
to 
> go there, but this issue isn't going to go away. If I'm wrong, that's OK, 
If 
> I'm right, ho-hum. But "it's a mystery" is totally unacceptable. Will post 
my 
> results.

It'd be interesting to hear their explanation.

Maybe it's not a mystery. It's two groups of several blackboards full of 
calculations, separated by a large space wherein is written: "And here a 
miracle occurs, from which it therefore follows...." :)

Sorry, I happen to have a very warped-minded physicist for a friend.

-- 

 I understand the implication, and would dearly love to leave it at that. 
But, the fact remains that the explanation of my designs may have been based on 
gobbledygook. If so, I have to make corrections in the reprint, and post them 
in the meantime. The technical discussion is exhilarating, but the book has a 
mission to perform. It is meant to serve as a beginning work -- a sort of 
springboard for others. Leaving wrong impressions could derail another person's 
experiments. Here is what I'm getting at; the theoretical limit for propane 
burning in air is supposed to be F 3600. Previous burners averaged about F 2250. My 
designs haven't been put to any scientific tests (lack of money) but they 
seem to increase NOx. When one of the bigger models is running fully heated, I 
can smell something like ozone. Fuel/air burners put out raised levels of NOx 
between 2800 and 3100 degrees. Above or below that temperature the levels fall 
again. So, we have a possible indication of their temperature range. I have 
also compared them to earlier burners running on MAPP and on Propylene. They run 
a little hotter with propane than the other burners with MAPP or Propylene. 
Again, this indicates a temperature over 2800 degrees. Am I happy? Yes, but far 
from satisfied. Between five and eight hundred degrees are left unachieved; We 
want them. Furthermore, with the EPA breathing down everyone's back, NOx will 
become an issue for even the hobbyist sooner or later. Why wait for the dog 
pack to come howling at our shop doors to "rise above it"?  We certainly don't 
want to go the other way.
Mikey


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