[TheForge] Refractory wool hazard(?) (was: Johnson Forge ...)

Mon Nov 17 16:40:59 2003

Silicosis, black lung, etc., all center around uptake of "respirable" =
particles (guess: <8 microns).  If you don't breathe those particles, you =
don't get the condition.  So don't breathe those particles!  I think we're =
agreed on that.  What I take issue with is the tacit assumption that these =
particles are out to get you, that if you use something that can yield =
these particles you're dooming yourself.  Ever been in a dusty wind.  What =
do YOU think that dust is * powdered sugar?  The stuff that blows around =
is small stuff, likely to be respirable.
=20
I don't see any reason NOT to trust the manufacturer's MSDS.  THAT was an =
MSDS that could have been written by someone on this list - a very =
straightforward presentation of the facts by some writer who clearly was =
pissed off at the brouhaha that has ensued since THE PUBLIC found out =
about the bad side of asbestos.
I thought it a very bravely written document.  When a manufacturer wants =
to deceive, he does it by hedging, putting out general warnings (WARNING:  =
DROWNING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH), uzw., NOT by clearly written =
rendtions of actual findings.  I have never before SEEN such a thorough =
treatment of a subject in an MSDS, and have to respect any person who'd =
stick his neck out like that to write one.
=20
We all know enough to consider both sides of a hazard question.  You all =
are (or should be) aware that coal tar and "creosotes" and "coke oven =
emissions" are on the US Public Health Service's list of known (not just =
"suspected") carcinogens.  Does that stop you from blacksmithing?
=20
Remember that asbestos, for example, has SAVED a large number of lives by =
not burning when another insulating material might have.  Perhaps the WTC =
might not have collapsed had they left the asbestos in place.
=20
As for thalidomide, you're WAY off base.  Thalidomide was NEVER approved =
by the FDA for use as a sedative (the use that ended up causing birth =
defects).  That was the Europeans that did that.  The FDA's drug approval =
system worked to protect Americans from this drug.  Unfortunately, some =
got it elsewhere.  (In fact, the best way to give a drug a cult following =
is to have FDA reject it!  Go figure...)  The current use for thalidomide =
is for leprosy.  Indeed, the fact that thalidomide is an (obviously) =
active drug is what makes it so interesting.  Drugs HAVE to be active to =
do any good.  Again, you have to weigh the good against the bad. =20
=20
More reading for those interested:
http://www.rcfc.net/hearth.htm
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/DT/fibrous-glass.html
=20
Bruce=20
NJ

>>> [email protected] 11/17/2003 3:06:40 PM >>>

Bruce Freeman wrote:
<snip>
>=20
> Some time ago I posted the MSDS for one of these refractory wool
> products.  The manufacturer had watched his workers for years and
> years and found no lung diseases.  This stuff is NOT asbestos.=20

    But it is still a sillicate, which can cause silicosis,
    the symptoms of which I believe are very similar to that
    of emphysema.

> (Not all asbestos, even, is carcinogenic, BTW.)  What the
> manufacturer DID find was some slight evidence of scarring of the
> lungs that was so slight that it was not outside the range of the
> normal population (which is not to say that the refractory didn't
> cause it).

    I would not be so fast to blindly trust amanufacturer's
    findings in such matters.  They also said that Thalidomide
    was safe and look where it got several thousands of new borns?
    And to boot, I recall just a few months ago that the drug
    companies have been lobbying to bring thalidomide back!
    My seemingly unrelated point here is that where profit is
    concerned, one must take the "trust me, it's safe" claims
    made by those who make those profits with at least a grain
    of salt.  Corporate veils generally protect execs from
    any personal accountability.  Chapter 11 protects the
    corporate entity from even the most eggregious acts (to wit,
    ENRON which is still operating, and Ken Lay has yet to be charged
    with any crime.)

    Caveat blacksmith!
>=20
> Weigh against that that it is a mistake to breath in ANY fibers or =
particles smaller than, say, 8 microns.  (I don't know the exact figure.  =
10 microns apparently is not too much of a problem - you cough those up =
and spit them out - but 4 microns is "respirable" * i.e., a problem.)  =
Now, remember that MOST of the fibers you kick off a forge are going to be =
much bigger than 10 microns.
>=20
> I do not want anyone to get sloppy around refractory wool. =20
>I just want some balance in reporting its hazards.

    Point well taken.
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