[TheForge] Cylinder Size

Fri Jul 18 13:31:01 2003

Hey Randy,
 I like your concept. The additional ability to clamp the billet would be an
asset to me. I use my hydraulic press as a clamp quite often.
Maybe one of the folks on the list can come up with a workable linkage
design.
I still also like the concept of a pneumatic stroke completion sensor. It
automatically senses the pressure drop on the exhaust side of the piston
when it hits any thickness billet and sends the signal to the control valve
to reverse.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Mundt" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Cylinder Size


> Hi Chuck;
> Somewhere in the this contraption there is a knob or bolt or something
that
> trips the pilot valve, lets say it is right on top of the hammer head, and
> the pilot valve is  1" below  the top of the stroke. so when the hammer
> moves down 1" the air reverses and and starts building press. to raise the
> hammer, gravity and enertia carry the hammer down to the work after this.
If
> the pilot valve is 2" inches Below the top of stroke, the hammer must move
> down 2" before the air reverses so press is applied to the top of the
> cylinder twice as long (ignoring acceloration)and it is twice as long
before
> press starts building to raise  the hammer so the hammer will hit harder
but
> slower, by moving the pilot valve further down it would be possible to
drive
> the hammer clear to the bottom under press in which case it should hit
very
> hard but would dwell for an instant on the work further down yet and the
air
> will not reverse and the hammer would clamp the work.
> So I figured after opening the throttle valve  wide so the hammer is
beating
> at max some sort of linkage between  the treadle and the pilot valve would
> enable you to vary the position of the valve by depressing the treadle
> further. Mind you I've never had anything to do w/ one of these hammers so
> this just might not be a good idea.
> Randy Mundt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Robinson" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 6:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Cylinder Size
>
>
> > Hey Randy,
> > I'm pretty familiar with how single and double pilot valves work, but
your
> > comment "would control where the valve was tripped with the treadle,
just
> an
> > idea for
> > more control of the hammer", sound intriguing but leaves me confused as
to
> > how it would work.
> > Sort of like telling me how to remove a car engine: 1. lift hood 2.
Remove
> > engine.
> > Can you elaborate.
> > Chuck
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "R.C.Mundt" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 10:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Cylinder Size
> >
> >
> > > Hi Chuck;
> > > If the lower pilot valve( the one that tells the hammer to go up) is
> > tripped
> > > near the top of the stroke or if you're using a valve setup w/ one
pilot
> > > valve and spring return, a short burst of air sends the hammer down
then
> > the
> > > bottom side of the cylinder starts filling to raise the hammer, so the
> > > hammer beats fast and light.  If the lower pilot valve is triped at
the
> > > bottom of the stroke air pres. drives the hammer clear to the bottom
> then
> > > the air reverses and raises the hammer , it beats slow and hard. I
> thought
> > I
> > > would control where the valve was tripped with the treadle, just an
idea
> > for
> > > more control of the hammer.
> > > Randy Mundt
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Chuck Robinson" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:05 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Cylinder Size
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey Randy,
> > > > I'm confused. Could you elaborate and more clearly state your idea
so
> I
> > > can
> > > > understand it?
> > > > Chuck
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "R.C.Mundt" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 11:24 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Cylinder Size
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Just a thought I had if I ever got around to building an air
hammer.
> I
> > > > > thought I would control the position of the lower pilot valve w/
the
> > > > > treadle, after the throttle valve was wide open further depressing
> the
> > > > > treadle would move the pilot valve downward.
> > > > > Randy Mundt
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Chuck Robinson" <[email protected]>
> > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 4:20 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Cylinder Size
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hey Shannell,
> > > > > > I'm slowly building a 200 lb air hammer.
> > > > > > I don't like the cantilevered hammer slide on the kinyon hammer,
> so
> > I
> > > > > > designed the head to reciprocate inside a vertical square tube
> > shell.
> > > > The
> > > > > > rectangular head has 2 guide grooves milled on opposite sides
and
> > they
> > > > > slide
> > > > > > on adjustable steel rails attached to the corresponding inner
> faces
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > tube. The top adjusting bolts of the guide rails will have a
small
> > > hole
> > > > > > drilled thru the long axis of the bolt to provide lubrication to
> the
> > > > > sliding
> > > > > > surfaces of the hammer head. Since there is no side loading on
the
> > > head
> > > > > wear
> > > > > > will be minimal.
> > > > > > The only problem I fore see with this design, is where to mount
> the
> > > > > > adjustable bottom pilot valve, hence the desirability of using a
> > > > pneumatic
> > > > > > stroke completion sensor.
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Shannell Sugrue" <[email protected]>
> > > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 9:13 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Cylinder Size
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I use the dual pilot setup and its great, hits hard, fast and
is
> > > > easily
> > > > > > > adjustable on the fly. I think any type of "stroke completion
> > > sensor"
> > > > > > might
> > > > > > > be overkill, I often slide my roller valves when working or
when
> > > > putting
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > piece under the hammer.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Chuck Robinson" <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > Sent: 12 July, 2003 9:13 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Cylinder Size
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One of the problems I've noticed is the relatively soft hit
if
> > the
> > > > > > Kinyon
> > > > > > > > style hammers.
> > > > > > > >  I suspect the automatic reversing switch in the single
pilot
> > > > control
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > valve is the culprit, since the piston switches direction
> before
> > > the
> > > > > > > hammer
> > > > > > > > hits the billet. This also reduces dwell time of the hammer
on
> > the
> > > > > > billet.
> > > > > > > > A double pilot control valve will eliminate this problem but
> the
> > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > pilot valve must be adjusted for the billet thickness.
> > > > > > > > Is there any brave soul out there who has played around with
> > > stroke
> > > > > > > > completion sensors to maximize hammer dwell time and
> > automatically
> > > > > > adjust
> > > > > > > > for stock thickness?
> > > > > > > > Chuck
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 2:13 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Cylinder Size
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you go with a larger bore on the cylinder you would
need
> to
> > > > also
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > the ports on the cylinder and and the valve be as large as
> > > > > possible.The
> > > > > > > > trick is the amount of air flow you can get through the
system
> > as
> > > > fast
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > you can get.You can have a large bore cylinder with big
ports
> > but
> > > if
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > valve ports are small and have a low cv rating then it will
> not
> > > > cycle
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > fast.I have a 2" bore cylinder on my 25lbr with 3/8" ports
on
> > both
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > valve(which also has a high cv rate)and cylinder.it will do
> 240
> > > > beats
> > > > > > > > /minute before that I had the same style valve with 1/4"
ports
> > and
> > > a
> > > > > > lower
> > > > > > > > cv and could only get 180 beats/minute
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > HotAnvil Forge
> > > > > > > > > http://members.tripod.com/hotanvil_forge
> > > > > > > > >
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