[TheForge] treadle hammer design (was: treadle hammeranvils)

Fri Jan 24 12:43:01 2003

Larry and Marc:

In my earlier post about trying a see-saw arrangement, I didn't elaborate =
on my experiments for the simple reason that they were so unsuccessful.  =
But indeed, I did try a bent see-saw, so that when the hammer is up the =
weight is down and, hence, I'm only swinging the weight backwards, not =
lifting it;  when the hammer is down the weight is up, providing full =
balancing of the hammer plus some return force.  If you think about it, =
this is a little like trying to get something for nothing, but there is a =
range in which the concept does work.

But gravity is just too slow!  Which is to say it's just too weak a force. =
 If you use a block-and-tackle arrangement to turn the drop of a very =
heavy weight into a lift for a much lighter hammer (like a x8 or x16 =
mechanical disadvantage), then the idea DOES work, and, indeed, this is =
exactly the basis of the Weightless Hammer. =20

For practicality, I use a spring in the Weightless Hammer, not a heavy =
weight and gravity.

Bruce
NJ

>>> [email protected] 01/24/03 11:48AM >>>
This is one thought I had.  Again the object is to overcome the mass of
the ram, with as small amount of energy required to get it moving.

Marc Godbout wrote:

> Here's another thought. If the counterweight is just like a see-
> saw, on the straight arm of the driving head, it would end up in
> the "top" position when the hammer hits the work. How about
> arranging it so that the counterweight arm is short, and parallel
> to the floor when the hammer is hitting. Then you'd get the most
> benefit from gravity on the return. And it would "weigh" less when
> starting the stroke.
>

I have also looked at the spare flywheel from a LG sitting on the
ground.  But then as George said, do I really want a treadle powered LG?

Larry

>
> As Pete said, there is still some loss in the transmission, no
> matter how the masses are arranged. A shorter counterweight arm
> take some flex out of the system. Now I'm thinking some wheel
> instead of an arm.
>
> Someday I may actually build one of these instead of think about
> it :-)
>
> -Marc
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: Peter Fels and Phoebe Palmer <[email protected]>
> Reply-To: [email protected]=20
> Date:  Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:27:50 -0800
>
> >At 12:27 PM 1/23/03, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >I was wrong when i said that a split weight ( counterbalancing )
> would be
> >slower..misread, sorry.
> >But if the hammer head only had 1/2 the weight  it would be less
> efficient
> >because the mechanism would absorb some of the blow. Think of how
> much
> >difference there is  just working on the heel VS the middle of
> the anvil
> >face.  When the hammer isn't directly above the work and/or the
> anvil mass
> >isn't directly below the work, considerable loss is the result.
> To get the
> >same forging effect, the counterbalanced assembly would have to
> be
> >considerably heavier than a conventional sprung TH. It would,
> however, have
> >some compensating virtues. If nothing else, those tensioned
> springs spook
> >me. Garage door springs kill people.
> >Larry, why bother with a light spring? just shift the
> counterweight out a
> >little.....Pete
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Like a teeter toter?
> >>Saw one of those in a website with some Asian content. Two kids
> stood on
> >>the back. Rails on the side of the beam so they. When a hit was
> callled
> >>for they just pushed down on the beam. Yeah could work if yoou
> have smart
> >>weights.
> >>  DragonsWatch <[email protected]> wrote:I have looked
> at the
> >> designs of several different styles of treadle hammer. And they
> all seem
> >> to have one thing in common, some sort of lever and large
> springs which
> >> lift the hammer, and a treadle to over come the springs and
> lower the
> >> hammer. So I ask, what would be the result if the springs were
> replaced
> >> with a weight great enough to balance the hammer. Then a light
> spring
> >> could lift the hammer. Say a conventional design has a hammer
> of 50# and
> >> the operator can accelerate that weight to say 5 fps and the
> travel is 8
> >> inches. You would have an
> >>impact of XXX pounds per sq. inch. If you had a hammer where the
> head was
> >>balanced, say 25# hammer and 25# counterweight, would it not
> strike at the
> >>same pounds per sq. inch when moving at 5 fps?
> >>This does require the ram and the weight be rigid to each other.
> The point
> >>being is that you still have 50# of mass in motion, and the
> energy is
> >>transferred in the blow, not in the motion of the head. Seems
> somewhere it
> >>is written that a mass in motion will remain in motion, or
> something like
> >>that. Just something to think about. I'm sure I am over looking
> some
> >>obvious law of physics that says this is not how things work.
> >>
> >>Larry
> >>
> >>
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