[TheForge] Re: Salt Baths
Chuck Robinson
[email protected]
Thu Aug 28 01:00:01 2003
Hey Grant,
I use metallurgical grade coke in my gas forge to minimize scaling on my
billets, but the difference in scaling between a salt bath with any forge
and any hi temp furnace, except inert gas furnaces, is like night and day'
When you use a salt bath you can finish your blade to 400 grit while it is
soft, and continue on to finer grits after the heat treating.
when the blade is first immersed in the salt, a protective crust of salt
immediately forms on the blade protecting it well before it reaches scaling
temperature.
As the blade reaches the melting point of the salt the crust liquefies , so
there is an excellent heat transfer to the blade and any shadow areas are
easily visible .
When you remove the blade from the salt the blade remains coated with a thin
layer of salt that immediately solidifies and protects the blade.
Indecently most blade smiths I know never let the blade reach room
temperature . We Put the blades in a low temp salt bath or low temp furnace
before the blade drops much below 400 degrees.
Remember the process is producing only a potential hardness until the blade
drops below 400 degrees.
It is a pretty common practice for a smith to take warped blade in gloved
hands and bend it true above 400 degrees.
a lot of the stress of the hardening takes place below 400 degrees.
I've heard sad stories from smiths who after heat treating blades in the
evening let the blades come to ambient temperature overnight. deciding to
wait till the next day to draw them. More than a few times they discovered
stress cracks in the blades.
My forge is a yurt style building with a cupola covering an 8' center hole
in the roof.
I designed the building for maximum ventilation so I have never had a
problem with any of the noxious gasses generated in the shop.
I don't know whether the hammer arms were hardened in the original specs.
I believe that the arms on my little giant aren't.
A lot of the older hammers have been around before 5160 was produced.
I expect that if some one contacted Sid Sudameier, he could shed more light
on the subject.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> Chuck: The pipe is a good idea...I use pieces of kiln shelf in my gas
forge
> to promote even heating as well, and a magnet is better than nothing, even
> though it will not reveal the interior condition of the steel.
>
> Regarding the arm, was the original hardened? Do the factory specs
require
> a hardened arm? It would be tough to get the original specs on a Beaudry
> hammer, but you might be able to wing it with LG specs for similar parts.
> If you welded with a hardenable filler, hardening would be possible, with
no
> weak spot, assuming the weld was properly executed.
>
> I'm assuming that some heat treating was done on the original piece, given
> the use of a hardenable steel like 5160. If I had to heat treat it, I
would
> anneal, harden, and temper as a spring; i.e.: to a blue color from
> brightened metal. This should work
>
> How do you like salt baths? I have never used them, though others swear
by
> them. Is chlorine gas formation an issue? I avoid scaling by placing
> chunks of hardwood charcoal in the furnace, a trick I learned from a maker
> of parts for model trains. This has worked well, though my observations
> suggest scaling is greatly reduced by keeping gas flames from striking the
> piece directly, hence the value of the pipe.
>
>
> Grant
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Robinson" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
>
>
> > Hey Grant, The reason I proposed using a pipe and a Magnet, Is because I
> was
> > assuming that Ralph didn't have any fancy heat treating equipment
> available.
> > I use salt baths and so can control the temperature to a few degrees.
> > The salt bath also allows you to bring the billet to temperature much
> faster
> > and hold precise temperatures while preventing scaling.
> > When a billet is placed in the salt, the color difference between the
> > billet and the salt shows how close it is to temp. If you see dark
shadows
> > in the billet the core is still not ready.
> > Of all the steels used by bladesmiths the 5160 is one of the easiest and
> > most forgiving of alloy steels to heat treat.
> > I can see a big advantage in normalizing to reduce stresses and grain
> size,
> > but I still have a problem with why the arm needs to be hardened.
> > The weak area, will be the weld zone, and that's where the arm will
likely
> > fail again due to the high shock loading of the hammer in operation.
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 5:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> >
> >
> > > Ralph, Chuck: I would absolutely agree with the need to
> normalize/anneal
> > > prior to hardening....I neglected to mention that step. I routinely
do
> > this
> > > after forging. I normally use a pyrometer when heat treating, for
> greater
> > > uniformity of temperature control and I anneal in preheated
vermiculite.
> > >
> > > The most important aspect of hardening is the efficient transformation
> of
> > > pearlite and ferrite to austenite, which requires proper
through-heating
> > of
> > > the metal at critical temp. The one hour per inch of thickness rule
> > refers
> > > to the time spent at critical temp, rather than the total time spent
> under
> > > heat. Yes, it really takes that much time for austenitic
transformation
> > for
> > > thick sections. One of the greatest challenges for metallurgists was
to
> > > figure out how to get thick sections of tool steel to harden
> throughout,
> > > hence the addition of certain refractory elements.
> > >
> > > Industrial heat also treaters have the option of using electric or
> baffled
> > > furnaces to avoid having higher temperature flames
> > > strike the pieces in differing areas. These produce a still heat of
> > uniform
> > > temperature. You can mimic industrial processes to some degree by
> heating
> > > the pieces inside of pipes or using an igloo of kiln shelf for even
> > heating.
> > > Regardless of the heat treating operation; normalizing, annealing,
> > hardening
> > > or tempering; the closer you can come to an even, still heat, the more
> > > uniform and complete your heat treating ops will be. because you have
> > > avoided hot spots that prevent uniform heating..
> > >
> > > In normalizing, a still air cooling allows the austenite to revert to
> > > pearlite and ferrite again. Also, the stresses induced by forging are
> > > reduced in the piece. A non-air-hardening steel such as 5160 will
not
> > > harden appreciably, as little or no austenite is being transformed
into
> > > martensite because the temperature is not decreasing quickly enough.
> > Such
> > > treatment will likely render the piece cuttable with a file.
> > >
> > > I have never found magnets a reliable method of predicting critical
> > temps.
> > > The magnet will fail to hold due to the weaker electrochemical bonds
> > between
> > > atoms at the surface, but they do not reveal the completeness of
> > austenitic
> > > transformation, especially in thicker sections.
> > >
> > > One of the most complete texts on this subject is "Alloying Elements
in
> > > Steel" by Edgar C. Bain. Originally printed in 1939, it is still a
> > standard
> > > reference text in graduate materials science courses.
> > >
> > > I wouldn't shy away from oil quenching a welded section that needed to
> be
> > > hardened, provided the weld was properly done and the piece properly
> > heated.
> > > Oil is far gentler than water or brine.
> > >
> > >
> > > Grant
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Chuck Robinson" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:02 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > >
> > >
> > > > Another thing that Jim Batson stresses is "normalizing" 3 times to
> > > thermally
> > > > refine the grain structure.
> > > > 5160 is an alloy steel that benefits from normalizing.
> > > > I would recommend that you heat a section of 3" id heavy wall pipe
in
> > your
> > > > forge to red heat then place the arm in it.
> > > > When the arm reaches non magnetic remove and let it cool to black
> heat
> > in
> > > > still air.
> > > > Repeat the process 2 X.
> > > > Then heat the arm to nonmagnetic, remove it and let it harden in
still
> > air
> > > > to room temperature.
> > > > This will allow it to air harden some, but not subject the weld area
> to
> > > the
> > > > high stress of a full oil hardening.
> > > > Chuck
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "David E. Smucker" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:43 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Grant and (Ralph)
> > > > >
> > > > > I basically agree with all you are saying below except I would
like
> to
> > > > point
> > > > > out one item in your heat treating of 5160.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Heat treating 5160 is simple. Critical temps are 1550F to
1600F,
> > > hold
> > > > > for one hour per inch of thickness."
> > > > >
> > > > > For most Blacksmithing applications the "hold for one hour per
inch
> of
> > > > > thickness" doesn't make sense. I misunderstood this for years
until
> I
> > > got
> > > > > into a conversation with Jim Batson at LaCrosse last summer. The
> heat
> > > for
> > > > 1
> > > > > hour per inch of thickness is standard industrial practice and I
> > always
> > > > > would write that into the spec going to a custom industrial heat
> treat
> > > > shop.
> > > > > The reason it is required is that to control the temperature in a
> > > > industrial
> > > > > heat treat furnace the operator adjusts the set point of the
furnace
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > desired critical temperature -- and then expects the work piece to
> > come
> > > up
> > > > > to that temperature over time. To be sure that the piece fully
gets
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > temperature we use that 1 hour per inch of thickness rule of
thumb.
> > "We
> > > > let
> > > > > it soak" to be sure that the whole piece reaches critical
> temperature.
> > > > >
> > > > > In our Blacksmith shops on the other hand most of us don't have a
> > > > industrial
> > > > > heat treat furnace with a temperature control system. We just
heat
> > the
> > > > item
> > > > > in the coal or gas forge and use color or temp sticks to judge
when
> we
> > > > have
> > > > > reach critical temperature. Since in the forge we have a
"furnace"
> > with
> > > > its
> > > > > set point temperature much higher than the desired critical
> > temperature
> > > we
> > > > > have lots of driving force to heat the work piece. In other words
> we
> > > > don't
> > > > > have to let it "soak" to get up to critical temperature. We still
> > want
> > > to
> > > > > wait long enough that we feel good about the whole piece being at
> > > > > critical -- but not near a hour per inch. (Having the item soak
at
> > > > critical
> > > > > temperature doesn't hurt it -- having it above critical
temperature
> on
> > > the
> > > > > other had leads to grain size growth that we would like to avoid.)
> > > > >
> > > > > As I said I didn't understand this point for years and have watch
> lots
> > > of
> > > > > stuff get heat treated. (In heat treating of hard aluminum alloys
> > > heating
> > > > > above the solution heat treat point is really bad, you get local
> > melting
> > > > in
> > > > > the piece and airplanes fall out of the sky.)
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a really good discussion Ralph, In welding of small
> > powerhammer
> > > > > tools and such using 5160, 4140, H13, and S7, I have had good luck
> > just
> > > > TIG
> > > > > welding them with common carbon steel TIG rod. I always used a
> > preheat,
> > > > and
> > > > > then let them air cool. For the H13 and S7 I then did a heat
> treat --
> > > > took
> > > > > to critical temperature and let them air quench, followed by a
> > reheating
> > > > to
> > > > > temper. Note that for both of these critical is higher than for
> plain
> > > > > carbon steels (1850 F for H13 and 1725 F for S7) and the magnet
> test
> > > is
> > > > > not a good one. My tempering temperature tended to be a good
> "guess"
> > > for
> > > > > the H13 at around 1000 F. I don't think I have had any handles
> break
> > > off,
> > > > > except for spring swage dies where the spring was welded to the
> > working
> > > > end.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dave Smucker
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 9:49 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ralph: Sounds like you reflected plenty on the QA issues here.
> The
> > > > 700F
> > > > > > temp will soften a hardened/tempered piece of 5160.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This alloy is medium carbon (60 pt.) steel that is very tough
and
> > well
> > > > > > suited for the application you have. It is also not high in
> > chromium
> > > > > (0.70
> > > > > > to 0.90%) , which would prompt me to use a regular carbon (for
> hard
> > > > > service)
> > > > > > vs. stainless filler. The chromium at this level produces even
> > > > hardening
> > > > > in
> > > > > > thicker sections, vs. the 12-13% required to make steels truly
> stain
> > > > > > resistant. This alloy is used for swords, axes and BIG bowies,
> etc.
> > > > The
> > > > > > 4140 type alloys are 40 pt. nickel /chromium alloys that are
still
> > > > > > considered "carbon steels" and are used in firearms because of
> their
> > > > > > excellent shock resistance. I would still use fillers
recommended
> > for
> > > > > > carbon steels vs. stainless. Preheating and subsequent stress
> > > > relieving
> > > > > > are always a good idea with any tool steel. You have thought of
> > this
> > > > > > already.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Heat treating 5160 is simple. Critical temps are 1550F to
1600F,
> > hold
> > > > for
> > > > > > one hour per inch of thickness. However, it is HIGHLY advisable
> to
> > > > > > construct an igloo if using a gas forge, to keep LPG flame off
of
> > > piece.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > routinely do this when forging blades from air-hardening steels
> such
> > > as
> > > > A2
> > > > > > or ATS-34
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Use pure hardwood charcoal thrown into furnace to reduce oxygen
> and
> > > > quench
> > > > > > in oil. Tempering can be done in home oven at
450-500F..brighten
> > area
> > > > of
> > > > > > steel to reveal color and soak until blue color is present.
> Quench
> > > > whole
> > > > > > piece again in room temp water to arrest tempering process.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope this helps
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Grant
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
> > > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 6:09 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Grant and Dan, Thanks for the responses.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I had figured the best option would be to buy or make
> > > another
> > > > > arm,
> > > > > > > the second was to repair this one.
> > > > > > > We were told it was 5160 and the fellow who owned the
> > hammer
> > > > had
> > > > > > > some cheap drills that were pretty dull. When I got the arms
> > here,
> > > I
> > > > > > found
> > > > > > > that a drill would "sliver" cut the arm, and a file would
affect
> > it
> > > > and
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > skate. So I assumed I had an "as forged" piece of 5160. I
> > figured
> > > > it
> > > > > > > would have a certain hardness to it being it was a medium
carbon
> > > steel
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > .60 points of carbon.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If it had been hardened I would have considered two
> > options:
> > > > > > > 1) use stainless or a rod such as Dan mentioned with
alloys
> to
> > > > allow
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > deflection. If it broke you would be dealing with no other
> option
> > > but
> > > > > > > stainless at this point if you were trying to keep the rods
> equal
> > > > > length.
> > > > > > > 2) Anneal, grind bevel equal from both sides, weld with a
> > strong
> > > > > > tensile
> > > > > > > strength rod 8018 or 10018. Oil harden, temper(which I felt
> would
> > be
> > > > > > > difficult with the gear at my shop.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It wasn't hardened from my estimation of drilling and
> file
> > > > > > testing,
> > > > > > > and it was definitely a medium carbon steel so I'm assuming
the
> > 5160
> > > > (we
> > > > > > > were told) was in the ball park from the spark test I did
> > comparing
> > > it
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > another piece of known 5160 I had.
> > > > > > > So I approached it like this: Cut bevels with plasma
> > cutter
> > > > to
> > > > > > keep
> > > > > > > heat down and remove crystalized metal at break, Jiged broken
> > parts
> > > > with
> > > > > > > good fit at break for alignment of pin 90 degrees to arm, and
> > > keeping
> > > > > arm
> > > > > > > straight with clamps. The arms were arced, so I used shims to
> > keep
> > > it
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > the identical arc using the first arm as my pattern. I set
up
> > some
> > > > > > > firebricks with the broken smaller 4 1/2" end and the arm
> resting
> > on
> > > a
> > > > > > piece
> > > > > > > of 1 x 4 flat bar as a heat sink..........or I should say a
heat
> > > > holder.
> > > > > > > The small part was on the heated flat bar and out over the
brick
> > > > > allowing
> > > > > > me
> > > > > > > to align, clamp, and wedge the parts to exactly the arc I
> needed.
> > I
> > > > > > > preheated to 450 degrees, then welded the two sides, tacked
the
> > > center
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > a 3/4" stitch, flipped the arm and welded the back side, then
> came
> > > > back
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > completed the top side. I kept staggering my stringer beads
> and
> > > > > checking
> > > > > > > with a tempil marker not letting the project get above 700
> degrees
> > > > > > anywhere.
> > > > > > > (the ears that held the rollers tended to get hot the
fastest).
> > I
> > > > > > > completed the welding, let it cool slowly, then ground
> everything
> > > like
> > > > a
> > > > > > > gradual stress riser into the ears so there were no undercuts
> > > either,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > all welds were above original surface and brought back to that
> > > surface
> > > > > > again
> > > > > > > after grinding.
> > > > > > > When the part was cool it still cut the same as before
> > with
> > > a
> > > > > > drill
> > > > > > > and file. So I'm assuming I have a 5160 as forged arm, with a
> > > repair
> > > > > done
> > > > > > > between 450 and 700 so I should have done the least damage as
> > > possible
> > > > > to
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > for grain change.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not being really familiar with 5160 and not having
done
> > this
> > > > > alloy
> > > > > > > repair before, could you comment on the rods I used (low
> hydrogen
> > > high
> > > > > > > tensile strength, with elongation qualities) .......as I used
a
> > dual
> > > > > > shield
> > > > > > > wire I have used in the past for fastening mild and medium
> carbon
> > > > steels
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > HY80, HY100, and T1 - in heavy equipment repair. It was not
> > however
> > > > the
> > > > > > > wire I also have for connecting those HY80, HY100, and T1 to
> > > > themselves.
> > > > > > > Would you have chosen that wire? or a different wire or rod?
> > > > > > > Would you have annealed and heat treated the 5160 no
> > matter
> > > > > what?
> > > > > > > even with the drill slivers and file test showing what I would
> > call
> > > > half
> > > > > > > hard or as forged conditions..........or is that how a "tough
> > spring
> > > > > steel
> > > > > > > would react when properly heat treated?
> > > > > > > Not knowing if this is how heat treated 5160 would
> react,
> > I
> > > > > opted
> > > > > > > out of using stainless alloys and staying away from the heat
> > treated
> > > > > > > question and solution of "use stainless when in doubt".
> > > > > > > I'm new to this material and just looking for some
> > pointers.
> > > > > I've
> > > > > > > made lots of power hammer tools out of the 4140HT which is
also
> > > called
> > > > > > 4142
> > > > > > > or "half hard" heat treated to a 35-40 rockwell and they hold
up
> > > > fairly
> > > > > > well
> > > > > > > to the task as welded to a handle (with regular wire and not
> > > > stainless).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you don't mind answering a couple more questions:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When welding a handle to a forged air hardened, or
> forged
> > > > spring
> > > > > > > steel .......it is obviously hard then from heated, forged,
and
> > air
> > > > > > cooled.
> > > > > > > I have always made practice of welding with stainless rod at
> this
> > > > > > juncture.
> > > > > > > Would you recomend continuing this? or do you have other
> > suggestions
> > > > on
> > > > > > > fastening handles to hardened or forged tool and spring
steels?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for any input you may have to offer, as all my results
> have
> > > > been
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > trail and error.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ralph
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:03 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ralph: I misread your post.....if it is 5160, it is medium
> > carbon
> > > > and
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > likely heat treated. If so, you may have a soft spot at the
> > > joint.
> > > > > You
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > always heat treat the whole piece, if need be....just quench
> in
> > > oil
> > > > > vs.
> > > > > > > > water.
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 8:56 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ralph: There are a number of welding rods that would work
> > well
> > > > for
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > application. I have made similar repairs on shock-loaded
> > > members
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > usually what I did was to verify the needed LOA of the
> piece
> > > and
> > > > > > bevel
> > > > > > > > each
> > > > > > > > > side of the joint steeply, with ridge (or gap) left in the
> > > middle
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > guaranteed the LOA. Then preheat the surfaces to be
> joined.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you need to clamp the pieces firmly, clamp them in the
> "V"
> > of
> > > a
> > > > > > piece
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > angle-iron at the needed LOA. This acts as a splint that
> > holds
> > > > the
> > > > > > > pieces
> > > > > > > > > at a predetermined position.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Weld by first tacking the piece and then filling the
> bevels
> > so
> > > > the
> > > > > > > beads
> > > > > > > > > are just above the original surfaces. Make sure that the
> > > filling
> > > > > > beads
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > run in a connecting line to the joined ends of the
original
> > > piece.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > suspect the tension arms are of carbon steel, probably in
> the
> > 40
> > > > pt.
> > > > > > > > range,
> > > > > > > > > like axles.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I don't know if these arms are heat-treated, so the
welding
> > > will
> > > > > undo
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > heat treat near the joint. Before welding, check with the
> > edge
> > > of
> > > > a
> > > > > > > file.
> > > > > > > > > If a good file barely bites and makes a high-pitched
> scraping
> > > > sound,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > metal is likely heat treated. If the file bites easily
with
> a
> > > > lower
> > > > > > > > pitched
> > > > > > > > > sound, the piece is likely not heat treated. just my
cents
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Grant
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 6:33 PM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Here's a question I should have asked
> earlier..........
> > > Any
> > > > > > > > comments
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > welding 5160?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Today I welded up a broken tension arm from a #4
> > > Beaudry
> > > > > > Power
> > > > > > > > > > hammer. We'll see if it holds together when the hammer
> goes
> > > > back
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > use
> > > > > > > > > > on Monday(then I'll really know if my plan was a good
one
> or
> > > > not).
> > > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I used a particular method I thought might work,
> and
> > I
> > > > > > wonder
> > > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > > others would say on how to do it..........
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ralph
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > > > > > > > > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > > > > > > > > > Login: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > password: anvil
> > > > > > > > > > ___________
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > > > > > > > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > > > > > > > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > > > > > > > > Login: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > password: anvil
> > > > > > > > > ___________
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > > > > > > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > > > > > > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > > > > > > > Login: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > password: anvil
> > > > > > > > ___________
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > > > > > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > > > > > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > > > > > > Login: [email protected]
> > > > > > > password: anvil
> > > > > > > ___________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > > > > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > > > > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > > > > > Login: [email protected]
> > > > > > password: anvil
> > > > > > ___________
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > > > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > > > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > > > > Login: [email protected]
> > > > > password: anvil
> > > > > ___________
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > > > Login: [email protected]
> > > > password: anvil
> > > > ___________
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > > Login: [email protected]
> > > password: anvil
> > > ___________
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> > theforge mail list group photo site is
> > http://www.photoaccess.com
> > Login: [email protected]
> > password: anvil
> > ___________
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
> theforge mail list group photo site is
> http://www.photoaccess.com
> Login: [email protected]
> password: anvil
> ___________
>
>