[TheForge] Welding 5160
gblacksmith
[email protected]
Mon Aug 25 20:52:00 2003
Ralph: Yer right about the H-13....it does not readily lose its temper
below 900-1000F. Great for dies and hot punches, etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> Dave, to me this is a good conversation all around on hearing
> points of repairing power hammer parts to keep the failure rate to a
minimum
> or tooling used under them.
>
> I've always wondered about "hold at temp for one hour per inch of
> thickness" When talking to a metalurgist at a tool steel company
> ........(of course I had to dive in with some stupid questions)..........
> but, when he heard I was making hand held tooling for blacksmithing, he
just
> laughed and said......it will be just fine to heat it to red(forging it to
> shape) and let it air cool on it's own. You'll have to grind to shape
after
> that (and truer words have never been spoken - don't even bother trying to
> waste blades or machine cutters on air hardening steel after it's been
> heated.) BUT, the thing you will be most concerned with is that the S7
you
> make your chisels out of will start to slowly temper back at 350
> degrees...........and you may have to reheat and let cool if the tool
> becomes to far tempered back and dulls on you. In the case of H13 he told
> me that didn't start tempering back until 800-900 degrees (bad memory -
> can't remember which it was) - so it was much better for hot work in tool
> duration and abilities to accomplish what I wanted. He said the same
thing.
> If it tempered back and dulled, I'd want to reheat and let it cool from
the
> hardening temperature(which are all listed in the book he sent me). He
then
> said he wished all customers were as easy to deal with as my wishes and
> needs............ which led me to believe he still holds truth that
> blacksmith's heat treating doesnt' need to be that exact a science. So
I've
> paid attention to what he advised, reheated and let cool those tools that
> have tempered back to far, and made duplicate size chisels when jobs
> demanded repeated work so I didn't keep ruining a tool to get things done
by
> overheating it.
>
> In reguards to welding power hammer tools, this is always what
I've
> done is preheat, then Tig weld or Mig weld handles to all the steels used
> with a carbon steel wire.
> I found some of my air hardened tools to break with the carbon
wire
> (if the piece had been forged and cooled before I welded the handles on).
> So I've tried using a SS wire(309) to fasten handles to hardened tools
(with
> the preheat of course). These are just my findings and I was asking how
> others have made out.
>
> In spring swages, I sent an article into the hammer blow for Brian
> to print up last year (which he did). It was how I clamp a cage to the
die
> and lock the spring swage to the die also with that same cage. I've had
> much less breakage with the springs of the spring swages with this. The
> unit supports the springs weight, has an arch that keeps the dies from
side
> shifting, and offers a fingers/hands away handle to keep the blood
blisters
> from happening in a pinch (formerly occuring in a slightly coasting
> mechanical power hammer). The fine tuning on the brake and treadle/spring
> adjustments finally got rid of all that, but I still like the handle for
> keeping my hands further from the dies while working.
>
> Ralph
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David E. Smucker" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 8:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
>
>
> > Grant and (Ralph)
> >
> > I basically agree with all you are saying below except I would like to
> point
> > out one item in your heat treating of 5160.
> >
> > "Heat treating 5160 is simple. Critical temps are 1550F to 1600F,
hold
> > for one hour per inch of thickness."
> >
> > For most Blacksmithing applications the "hold for one hour per inch of
> > thickness" doesn't make sense. I misunderstood this for years until I
got
> > into a conversation with Jim Batson at LaCrosse last summer. The heat
for
> 1
> > hour per inch of thickness is standard industrial practice and I always
> > would write that into the spec going to a custom industrial heat treat
> shop.
> > The reason it is required is that to control the temperature in a
> industrial
> > heat treat furnace the operator adjusts the set point of the furnace to
> the
> > desired critical temperature -- and then expects the work piece to come
up
> > to that temperature over time. To be sure that the piece fully gets to
> the
> > temperature we use that 1 hour per inch of thickness rule of thumb. "We
> let
> > it soak" to be sure that the whole piece reaches critical temperature.
> >
> > In our Blacksmith shops on the other hand most of us don't have a
> industrial
> > heat treat furnace with a temperature control system. We just heat the
> item
> > in the coal or gas forge and use color or temp sticks to judge when we
> have
> > reach critical temperature. Since in the forge we have a "furnace" with
> its
> > set point temperature much higher than the desired critical temperature
we
> > have lots of driving force to heat the work piece. In other words we
> don't
> > have to let it "soak" to get up to critical temperature. We still want
to
> > wait long enough that we feel good about the whole piece being at
> > critical -- but not near a hour per inch. (Having the item soak at
> critical
> > temperature doesn't hurt it -- having it above critical temperature on
the
> > other had leads to grain size growth that we would like to avoid.)
> >
> > As I said I didn't understand this point for years and have watch lots
of
> > stuff get heat treated. (In heat treating of hard aluminum alloys
heating
> > above the solution heat treat point is really bad, you get local melting
> in
> > the piece and airplanes fall out of the sky.)
> >
> > This is a really good discussion Ralph, In welding of small powerhammer
> > tools and such using 5160, 4140, H13, and S7, I have had good luck just
> TIG
> > welding them with common carbon steel TIG rod. I always used a preheat,
> and
> > then let them air cool. For the H13 and S7 I then did a heat treat --
> took
> > to critical temperature and let them air quench, followed by a reheating
> to
> > temper. Note that for both of these critical is higher than for plain
> > carbon steels (1850 F for H13 and 1725 F for S7) and the magnet test
is
> > not a good one. My tempering temperature tended to be a good "guess"
for
> > the H13 at around 1000 F. I don't think I have had any handles break
off,
> > except for spring swage dies where the spring was welded to the working
> end.
> >
> > Dave Smucker
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 9:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> >
> >
> > > Ralph: Sounds like you reflected plenty on the QA issues here. The
> 700F
> > > temp will soften a hardened/tempered piece of 5160.
> > >
> > > This alloy is medium carbon (60 pt.) steel that is very tough and well
> > > suited for the application you have. It is also not high in chromium
> > (0.70
> > > to 0.90%) , which would prompt me to use a regular carbon (for hard
> > service)
> > > vs. stainless filler. The chromium at this level produces even
> hardening
> > in
> > > thicker sections, vs. the 12-13% required to make steels truly stain
> > > resistant. This alloy is used for swords, axes and BIG bowies, etc.
> The
> > > 4140 type alloys are 40 pt. nickel /chromium alloys that are still
> > > considered "carbon steels" and are used in firearms because of their
> > > excellent shock resistance. I would still use fillers recommended for
> > > carbon steels vs. stainless. Preheating and subsequent stress
> relieving
> > > are always a good idea with any tool steel. You have thought of this
> > > already.
> > >
> > > Heat treating 5160 is simple. Critical temps are 1550F to 1600F, hold
> for
> > > one hour per inch of thickness. However, it is HIGHLY advisable to
> > > construct an igloo if using a gas forge, to keep LPG flame off of
piece.
> > I
> > > routinely do this when forging blades from air-hardening steels such
as
> A2
> > > or ATS-34
> > >
> > > Use pure hardwood charcoal thrown into furnace to reduce oxygen and
> quench
> > > in oil. Tempering can be done in home oven at 450-500F..brighten area
> of
> > > steel to reveal color and soak until blue color is present. Quench
> whole
> > > piece again in room temp water to arrest tempering process.
> > >
> > > I hope this helps
> > >
> > >
> > > Grant
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 6:09 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > >
> > >
> > > > Grant and Dan, Thanks for the responses.
> > > >
> > > > I had figured the best option would be to buy or make
another
> > arm,
> > > > the second was to repair this one.
> > > > We were told it was 5160 and the fellow who owned the hammer
> had
> > > > some cheap drills that were pretty dull. When I got the arms here,
I
> > > found
> > > > that a drill would "sliver" cut the arm, and a file would affect it
> and
> > > not
> > > > skate. So I assumed I had an "as forged" piece of 5160. I figured
> it
> > > > would have a certain hardness to it being it was a medium carbon
steel
> > > with
> > > > .60 points of carbon.
> > > >
> > > > If it had been hardened I would have considered two options:
> > > > 1) use stainless or a rod such as Dan mentioned with alloys to
> allow
> > > for
> > > > deflection. If it broke you would be dealing with no other option
but
> > > > stainless at this point if you were trying to keep the rods equal
> > length.
> > > > 2) Anneal, grind bevel equal from both sides, weld with a strong
> > > tensile
> > > > strength rod 8018 or 10018. Oil harden, temper(which I felt would be
> > > > difficult with the gear at my shop.
> > > >
> > > > It wasn't hardened from my estimation of drilling and file
> > > testing,
> > > > and it was definitely a medium carbon steel so I'm assuming the 5160
> (we
> > > > were told) was in the ball park from the spark test I did comparing
it
> > to
> > > > another piece of known 5160 I had.
> > > > So I approached it like this: Cut bevels with plasma cutter
> to
> > > keep
> > > > heat down and remove crystalized metal at break, Jiged broken parts
> with
> > > > good fit at break for alignment of pin 90 degrees to arm, and
keeping
> > arm
> > > > straight with clamps. The arms were arced, so I used shims to keep
it
> > in
> > > > the identical arc using the first arm as my pattern. I set up some
> > > > firebricks with the broken smaller 4 1/2" end and the arm resting on
a
> > > piece
> > > > of 1 x 4 flat bar as a heat sink..........or I should say a heat
> holder.
> > > > The small part was on the heated flat bar and out over the brick
> > allowing
> > > me
> > > > to align, clamp, and wedge the parts to exactly the arc I needed. I
> > > > preheated to 450 degrees, then welded the two sides, tacked the
center
> > > with
> > > > a 3/4" stitch, flipped the arm and welded the back side, then came
> back
> > > and
> > > > completed the top side. I kept staggering my stringer beads and
> > checking
> > > > with a tempil marker not letting the project get above 700 degrees
> > > anywhere.
> > > > (the ears that held the rollers tended to get hot the fastest). I
> > > > completed the welding, let it cool slowly, then ground everything
like
> a
> > > > gradual stress riser into the ears so there were no undercuts
either,
> > and
> > > > all welds were above original surface and brought back to that
surface
> > > again
> > > > after grinding.
> > > > When the part was cool it still cut the same as before with
a
> > > drill
> > > > and file. So I'm assuming I have a 5160 as forged arm, with a
repair
> > done
> > > > between 450 and 700 so I should have done the least damage as
possible
> > to
> > > it
> > > > for grain change.
> > > >
> > > > Not being really familiar with 5160 and not having done this
> > alloy
> > > > repair before, could you comment on the rods I used (low hydrogen
high
> > > > tensile strength, with elongation qualities) .......as I used a dual
> > > shield
> > > > wire I have used in the past for fastening mild and medium carbon
> steels
> > > to
> > > > HY80, HY100, and T1 - in heavy equipment repair. It was not however
> the
> > > > wire I also have for connecting those HY80, HY100, and T1 to
> themselves.
> > > > Would you have chosen that wire? or a different wire or rod?
> > > > Would you have annealed and heat treated the 5160 no matter
> > what?
> > > > even with the drill slivers and file test showing what I would call
> half
> > > > hard or as forged conditions..........or is that how a "tough spring
> > steel
> > > > would react when properly heat treated?
> > > > Not knowing if this is how heat treated 5160 would react, I
> > opted
> > > > out of using stainless alloys and staying away from the heat treated
> > > > question and solution of "use stainless when in doubt".
> > > > I'm new to this material and just looking for some pointers.
> > I've
> > > > made lots of power hammer tools out of the 4140HT which is also
called
> > > 4142
> > > > or "half hard" heat treated to a 35-40 rockwell and they hold up
> fairly
> > > well
> > > > to the task as welded to a handle (with regular wire and not
> stainless).
> > > >
> > > > If you don't mind answering a couple more questions:
> > > >
> > > > When welding a handle to a forged air hardened, or forged
> spring
> > > > steel .......it is obviously hard then from heated, forged, and air
> > > cooled.
> > > > I have always made practice of welding with stainless rod at this
> > > juncture.
> > > > Would you recomend continuing this? or do you have other suggestions
> on
> > > > fastening handles to hardened or forged tool and spring steels?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for any input you may have to offer, as all my results have
> been
> > by
> > > > trail and error.
> > > >
> > > > Ralph
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:03 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Ralph: I misread your post.....if it is 5160, it is medium carbon
> and
> > > was
> > > > > likely heat treated. If so, you may have a soft spot at the
joint.
> > You
> > > > can
> > > > > always heat treat the whole piece, if need be....just quench in
oil
> > vs.
> > > > > water.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 8:56 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ralph: There are a number of welding rods that would work well
> for
> > > that
> > > > > > application. I have made similar repairs on shock-loaded
members
> > and
> > > > > > usually what I did was to verify the needed LOA of the piece
and
> > > bevel
> > > > > each
> > > > > > side of the joint steeply, with ridge (or gap) left in the
middle
> > that
> > > > > > guaranteed the LOA. Then preheat the surfaces to be joined.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you need to clamp the pieces firmly, clamp them in the "V" of
a
> > > piece
> > > > > of
> > > > > > angle-iron at the needed LOA. This acts as a splint that holds
> the
> > > > pieces
> > > > > > at a predetermined position.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Weld by first tacking the piece and then filling the bevels so
> the
> > > > beads
> > > > > > are just above the original surfaces. Make sure that the
filling
> > > beads
> > > > > are
> > > > > > run in a connecting line to the joined ends of the original
piece.
> > I
> > > > > would
> > > > > > suspect the tension arms are of carbon steel, probably in the 40
> pt.
> > > > > range,
> > > > > > like axles.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know if these arms are heat-treated, so the welding
will
> > undo
> > > > the
> > > > > > heat treat near the joint. Before welding, check with the edge
of
> a
> > > > file.
> > > > > > If a good file barely bites and makes a high-pitched scraping
> sound,
> > > the
> > > > > > metal is likely heat treated. If the file bites easily with a
> lower
> > > > > pitched
> > > > > > sound, the piece is likely not heat treated. just my cents
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Grant
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
> > > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 6:33 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's a question I should have asked earlier..........
Any
> > > > > comments
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > welding 5160?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Today I welded up a broken tension arm from a #4
Beaudry
> > > Power
> > > > > > > hammer. We'll see if it holds together when the hammer goes
> back
> > > into
> > > > > use
> > > > > > > on Monday(then I'll really know if my plan was a good one or
> not).
> > > > :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I used a particular method I thought might work, and I
> > > wonder
> > > > > what
> > > > > > > others would say on how to do it..........
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ralph
> > > > > > >
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