[TheForge] Welding 5160
Chuck Robinson
[email protected]
Mon Aug 25 10:06:00 2003
Another thing that Jim Batson stresses is "normalizing" 3 times to thermally
refine the grain structure.
5160 is an alloy steel that benefits from normalizing.
I would recommend that you heat a section of 3" id heavy wall pipe in your
forge to red heat then place the arm in it.
When the arm reaches non magnetic remove and let it cool to black heat in
still air.
Repeat the process 2 X.
Then heat the arm to nonmagnetic, remove it and let it harden in still air
to room temperature.
This will allow it to air harden some, but not subject the weld area to the
high stress of a full oil hardening.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "David E. Smucker" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> Grant and (Ralph)
>
> I basically agree with all you are saying below except I would like to
point
> out one item in your heat treating of 5160.
>
> "Heat treating 5160 is simple. Critical temps are 1550F to 1600F, hold
> for one hour per inch of thickness."
>
> For most Blacksmithing applications the "hold for one hour per inch of
> thickness" doesn't make sense. I misunderstood this for years until I got
> into a conversation with Jim Batson at LaCrosse last summer. The heat for
1
> hour per inch of thickness is standard industrial practice and I always
> would write that into the spec going to a custom industrial heat treat
shop.
> The reason it is required is that to control the temperature in a
industrial
> heat treat furnace the operator adjusts the set point of the furnace to
the
> desired critical temperature -- and then expects the work piece to come up
> to that temperature over time. To be sure that the piece fully gets to
the
> temperature we use that 1 hour per inch of thickness rule of thumb. "We
let
> it soak" to be sure that the whole piece reaches critical temperature.
>
> In our Blacksmith shops on the other hand most of us don't have a
industrial
> heat treat furnace with a temperature control system. We just heat the
item
> in the coal or gas forge and use color or temp sticks to judge when we
have
> reach critical temperature. Since in the forge we have a "furnace" with
its
> set point temperature much higher than the desired critical temperature we
> have lots of driving force to heat the work piece. In other words we
don't
> have to let it "soak" to get up to critical temperature. We still want to
> wait long enough that we feel good about the whole piece being at
> critical -- but not near a hour per inch. (Having the item soak at
critical
> temperature doesn't hurt it -- having it above critical temperature on the
> other had leads to grain size growth that we would like to avoid.)
>
> As I said I didn't understand this point for years and have watch lots of
> stuff get heat treated. (In heat treating of hard aluminum alloys heating
> above the solution heat treat point is really bad, you get local melting
in
> the piece and airplanes fall out of the sky.)
>
> This is a really good discussion Ralph, In welding of small powerhammer
> tools and such using 5160, 4140, H13, and S7, I have had good luck just
TIG
> welding them with common carbon steel TIG rod. I always used a preheat,
and
> then let them air cool. For the H13 and S7 I then did a heat treat --
took
> to critical temperature and let them air quench, followed by a reheating
to
> temper. Note that for both of these critical is higher than for plain
> carbon steels (1850 F for H13 and 1725 F for S7) and the magnet test is
> not a good one. My tempering temperature tended to be a good "guess" for
> the H13 at around 1000 F. I don't think I have had any handles break off,
> except for spring swage dies where the spring was welded to the working
end.
>
> Dave Smucker
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 9:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
>
>
> > Ralph: Sounds like you reflected plenty on the QA issues here. The
700F
> > temp will soften a hardened/tempered piece of 5160.
> >
> > This alloy is medium carbon (60 pt.) steel that is very tough and well
> > suited for the application you have. It is also not high in chromium
> (0.70
> > to 0.90%) , which would prompt me to use a regular carbon (for hard
> service)
> > vs. stainless filler. The chromium at this level produces even
hardening
> in
> > thicker sections, vs. the 12-13% required to make steels truly stain
> > resistant. This alloy is used for swords, axes and BIG bowies, etc.
The
> > 4140 type alloys are 40 pt. nickel /chromium alloys that are still
> > considered "carbon steels" and are used in firearms because of their
> > excellent shock resistance. I would still use fillers recommended for
> > carbon steels vs. stainless. Preheating and subsequent stress
relieving
> > are always a good idea with any tool steel. You have thought of this
> > already.
> >
> > Heat treating 5160 is simple. Critical temps are 1550F to 1600F, hold
for
> > one hour per inch of thickness. However, it is HIGHLY advisable to
> > construct an igloo if using a gas forge, to keep LPG flame off of piece.
> I
> > routinely do this when forging blades from air-hardening steels such as
A2
> > or ATS-34
> >
> > Use pure hardwood charcoal thrown into furnace to reduce oxygen and
quench
> > in oil. Tempering can be done in home oven at 450-500F..brighten area
of
> > steel to reveal color and soak until blue color is present. Quench
whole
> > piece again in room temp water to arrest tempering process.
> >
> > I hope this helps
> >
> >
> > Grant
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 6:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> >
> >
> > > Grant and Dan, Thanks for the responses.
> > >
> > > I had figured the best option would be to buy or make another
> arm,
> > > the second was to repair this one.
> > > We were told it was 5160 and the fellow who owned the hammer
had
> > > some cheap drills that were pretty dull. When I got the arms here, I
> > found
> > > that a drill would "sliver" cut the arm, and a file would affect it
and
> > not
> > > skate. So I assumed I had an "as forged" piece of 5160. I figured
it
> > > would have a certain hardness to it being it was a medium carbon steel
> > with
> > > .60 points of carbon.
> > >
> > > If it had been hardened I would have considered two options:
> > > 1) use stainless or a rod such as Dan mentioned with alloys to
allow
> > for
> > > deflection. If it broke you would be dealing with no other option but
> > > stainless at this point if you were trying to keep the rods equal
> length.
> > > 2) Anneal, grind bevel equal from both sides, weld with a strong
> > tensile
> > > strength rod 8018 or 10018. Oil harden, temper(which I felt would be
> > > difficult with the gear at my shop.
> > >
> > > It wasn't hardened from my estimation of drilling and file
> > testing,
> > > and it was definitely a medium carbon steel so I'm assuming the 5160
(we
> > > were told) was in the ball park from the spark test I did comparing it
> to
> > > another piece of known 5160 I had.
> > > So I approached it like this: Cut bevels with plasma cutter
to
> > keep
> > > heat down and remove crystalized metal at break, Jiged broken parts
with
> > > good fit at break for alignment of pin 90 degrees to arm, and keeping
> arm
> > > straight with clamps. The arms were arced, so I used shims to keep it
> in
> > > the identical arc using the first arm as my pattern. I set up some
> > > firebricks with the broken smaller 4 1/2" end and the arm resting on a
> > piece
> > > of 1 x 4 flat bar as a heat sink..........or I should say a heat
holder.
> > > The small part was on the heated flat bar and out over the brick
> allowing
> > me
> > > to align, clamp, and wedge the parts to exactly the arc I needed. I
> > > preheated to 450 degrees, then welded the two sides, tacked the center
> > with
> > > a 3/4" stitch, flipped the arm and welded the back side, then came
back
> > and
> > > completed the top side. I kept staggering my stringer beads and
> checking
> > > with a tempil marker not letting the project get above 700 degrees
> > anywhere.
> > > (the ears that held the rollers tended to get hot the fastest). I
> > > completed the welding, let it cool slowly, then ground everything like
a
> > > gradual stress riser into the ears so there were no undercuts either,
> and
> > > all welds were above original surface and brought back to that surface
> > again
> > > after grinding.
> > > When the part was cool it still cut the same as before with a
> > drill
> > > and file. So I'm assuming I have a 5160 as forged arm, with a repair
> done
> > > between 450 and 700 so I should have done the least damage as possible
> to
> > it
> > > for grain change.
> > >
> > > Not being really familiar with 5160 and not having done this
> alloy
> > > repair before, could you comment on the rods I used (low hydrogen high
> > > tensile strength, with elongation qualities) .......as I used a dual
> > shield
> > > wire I have used in the past for fastening mild and medium carbon
steels
> > to
> > > HY80, HY100, and T1 - in heavy equipment repair. It was not however
the
> > > wire I also have for connecting those HY80, HY100, and T1 to
themselves.
> > > Would you have chosen that wire? or a different wire or rod?
> > > Would you have annealed and heat treated the 5160 no matter
> what?
> > > even with the drill slivers and file test showing what I would call
half
> > > hard or as forged conditions..........or is that how a "tough spring
> steel
> > > would react when properly heat treated?
> > > Not knowing if this is how heat treated 5160 would react, I
> opted
> > > out of using stainless alloys and staying away from the heat treated
> > > question and solution of "use stainless when in doubt".
> > > I'm new to this material and just looking for some pointers.
> I've
> > > made lots of power hammer tools out of the 4140HT which is also called
> > 4142
> > > or "half hard" heat treated to a 35-40 rockwell and they hold up
fairly
> > well
> > > to the task as welded to a handle (with regular wire and not
stainless).
> > >
> > > If you don't mind answering a couple more questions:
> > >
> > > When welding a handle to a forged air hardened, or forged
spring
> > > steel .......it is obviously hard then from heated, forged, and air
> > cooled.
> > > I have always made practice of welding with stainless rod at this
> > juncture.
> > > Would you recomend continuing this? or do you have other suggestions
on
> > > fastening handles to hardened or forged tool and spring steels?
> > >
> > > Thanks for any input you may have to offer, as all my results have
been
> by
> > > trail and error.
> > >
> > > Ralph
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:03 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > >
> > >
> > > > Ralph: I misread your post.....if it is 5160, it is medium carbon
and
> > was
> > > > likely heat treated. If so, you may have a soft spot at the joint.
> You
> > > can
> > > > always heat treat the whole piece, if need be....just quench in oil
> vs.
> > > > water.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "gblacksmith" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 8:56 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Ralph: There are a number of welding rods that would work well
for
> > that
> > > > > application. I have made similar repairs on shock-loaded members
> and
> > > > > usually what I did was to verify the needed LOA of the piece and
> > bevel
> > > > each
> > > > > side of the joint steeply, with ridge (or gap) left in the middle
> that
> > > > > guaranteed the LOA. Then preheat the surfaces to be joined.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you need to clamp the pieces firmly, clamp them in the "V" of a
> > piece
> > > > of
> > > > > angle-iron at the needed LOA. This acts as a splint that holds
the
> > > pieces
> > > > > at a predetermined position.
> > > > >
> > > > > Weld by first tacking the piece and then filling the bevels so
the
> > > beads
> > > > > are just above the original surfaces. Make sure that the filling
> > beads
> > > > are
> > > > > run in a connecting line to the joined ends of the original piece.
> I
> > > > would
> > > > > suspect the tension arms are of carbon steel, probably in the 40
pt.
> > > > range,
> > > > > like axles.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know if these arms are heat-treated, so the welding will
> undo
> > > the
> > > > > heat treat near the joint. Before welding, check with the edge of
a
> > > file.
> > > > > If a good file barely bites and makes a high-pitched scraping
sound,
> > the
> > > > > metal is likely heat treated. If the file bites easily with a
lower
> > > > pitched
> > > > > sound, the piece is likely not heat treated. just my cents
> > > > >
> > > > > Grant
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Ralph Sproul" <[email protected]>
> > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 6:33 PM
> > > > > Subject: [TheForge] Welding 5160
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Here's a question I should have asked earlier.......... Any
> > > > comments
> > > > > on
> > > > > > welding 5160?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Today I welded up a broken tension arm from a #4 Beaudry
> > Power
> > > > > > hammer. We'll see if it holds together when the hammer goes
back
> > into
> > > > use
> > > > > > on Monday(then I'll really know if my plan was a good one or
not).
> > > :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I used a particular method I thought might work, and I
> > wonder
> > > > what
> > > > > > others would say on how to do it..........
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ralph
> > > > > >
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