[TheForge] 15Ton Press

Sun Jan 6 23:48:00 2002

Echoing Chuck with added emphasis, doubling the speed on the pump (to 3600rpm)
will *dramatically* increase the noise. I find it hard to believe that the pumps
last very long with the noise level I had on mine at 3600 rpm.

On the other hand, trying it won't hurt anything (except I'm still convinced
you'll let the smoke out of your 3hp motor).

Your comment about Northern's expertise on their own equipment sounds familiar. My
valve bypasses came set for about 1200 psi (I figured out later). They swore up
and down on the phone that they were set for a lot higher, and that my setup must
have a problem. I checked a bunch of stuff before raising the pressure. Bad enough
that they don't have a clue, worse that they act like they do!

Steve

Ed Fasula wrote:

> Hi Chuck,
>
> >Hey Ed,
> >The advantage of my design is that it minimizes side loading of the piston
> >seals at maximum ram extension with work off center in the dies,
>
> So you're saying that the side rails are fed through the base frame with a
> tight fit so that the frame resists the torque not the ram below?
>
> >the
> >cylinder is not subjected to heating and flux spatter as the cylinder on top
> >is, the center of gravity is lower, the frame is lighter and smaller, and on
> >my basic design, the die working heigth is adjustable. (Steward didn't
> >include that option in his press).
>
> Hmm, how do you accomplish that?
>
> >Your design should work OK, but a problem area will be your top die sliding
> >frame, when you try to forge off center.
>
> I was planning on welding guide angles to the plate where it fits between
> the double angle rails.  So eccentricity of loads would be resisted by the
> side rails, not the ram.  Like in Batson's H frame design.
>
> >We have made my style of press with
> >32" long cylinders cut down to 28"by modifying the attachment eyes.
>
> So if the stroke is about 26", wouldn't that mean your bottom anvil would
> need to be 52" plus off the ground to get full extension?  Or do you just
> forget about full extension?
>
> By the way, my cylinder is 24" plus the ends.  But, as Ralph has explained
> I may want to look for a different one because of the small porting (0.35"
> diameter).
>
> >I suspect that your cylinder will have a working travel of about 11"
>
> I was planning to make it tall enough to get the full 24" or so out of
> it.  Or am I misunderstanding what you mean?
>
> >which is
> >a good length for using drifts, But your design will make this operation
> >difficult unless you use a heavy wall pipe for your base to provide
> >clearance for the drift.
>
> Yah, I planned to use heavy 3x3 or larger tube.  It looks like with your
> design you must put a plate in there to catch the slug (punching
> operations) rather than let it sit on top of the cylinder?
>
> >In addition to the increase in HP that Steve mentions, Speeding up the pump
> >will dramatically increase the noise level and shorten pump life. You will
> >possibly create other problems in the system such as cavitation and higher
> >operating temperatures.
> >
> >I would strongly recommend that you get a larger pump and properly sized
> >1800 rpm motor and use a flow valve to fine tune the ram speeds.
> >
> >Jim Batson is a retired rocket scientist and he put a lot of research into
> >writing his hydraulics primer. The more you deviate from his recommendations
> >the deeper in DUDU you will be wading.
> >
> >The recommended ram speed for blade forging is between 1 and 2  IPS.
> >Chuck
>
> Maybe there is a misunderstanding here.  I'm using Batson's specs.  Do you
> think Batson undersizes the pumps?  For 6" cylinders Batson suggests a 16
> GPM pump run at 3600 or 1800 (8 GPM) with a 3 and 5 hp motor,
> respectively.  Steve Smith found 1"/sec to be plenty fast after running it
> at 2"/sec at first.  So I figured I'd use that for a baseline and adjust
> from there.  The 1800 rpm option gives 1.09 in/sec.  If I go the VFD route
> I could decide to run the pump at, say, 2400 rpm for press forging.  But
> that's still well below Batson's alternate recommendation of 3600 rpm.  If
> I upsize the pump to 22 GPM the pump price jumps over 40% and will run my
> cylinder at 1.5 in/sec turning at only 1800 rpm.  So that's why I leaned to
> the 16 GPM option.
>
> For splitting wood I'd like to run the pump at 3600 rpm as Northern
> Hydraulics recommends (actually if you ask them they erroneously think the
> pump won't work below 3600 rpm).  I'd be outside the building though so the
> noise wouldn't be bad.  Maximum rpm of this pump is 4000rpm per Barnes'
> (pump manufacturer) specs.
>
> I guess I could use the 22 GPM pump at 1800 and spill flow as required with
> a flow valve to get me back down to 1"/sec?  It'll cost me for the pump,
> valve, and require a minimum 5 hp motor and still the VFD to get the speed
> to run the wood splitter.  I guess I could can the wood splitter idea if it
> starts to become an obstacle.
>
> Ed
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Ed Fasula <[email protected]>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 10:27 PM
> >Subject: Re: [TheForge] 15Ton Press
> >
> >
> > > Hi Chuck,
> > >
> > >  >...have to be extremely tall to accommodate a 32" cylinder... There are
> > > enough advantages to my design over the cylinder on top that I
> > >  >wouldn't recommend that route.
> > >
> > >
> > > Oops.  Brain fart.  32" is the one for splitting wood.  The press cylinder
> > > is 6"x24"
> > >
> > > Here is a link http://www.geocities.com/edfasula/smithing.html
> > > to a sketch of the current thought I have for a structure.  I think I can
> > > keep it under 8' without too much worry.  Please criticize now, not after
> >I
> > > build it!  What disadvantages do you see with the cylinder on top?  While
> > > you're at it, let me know if you have any input on my plan with the pilot
> > > valve (there also).  [Also not how I try to pass of images from my scanner
> > > as digital camera pictures.]
> > >
> > >  >I'm not clear
> > >  >on why you need to vary the motor speed in a hydraulic system.
> > >
> > > Because I'll probably split wood with the pump (run out the forge door
> >with
> > > hoses with quick connects) and I want it to go fast enough.  But I hear
> > > (here) that the pumps scream at 3600 rpm.  I'm not sure what speed I want
> > > the ram to travel at.  Some in the book went 2"/sec.  That would take 3600
> > > rpm with the pump I'm looking at.  So if I decided if I really wanted to
> > > run the press at that, I could, but sill turn it down for delicate work or
> > > if I was sick of the racket.
> > >
> > >  >...why I'm using the C P
> > >  >pump.The flow is full volume until you reach the maximum pressure.
> > >
> > > Do you know what ram speed full volume gives you?
> > >
> > > Hope you health is coming back well for you.
> > >
> > > Ed
> > >
> > >
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