[TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer

Tue Dec 3 01:13:00 2002

Shannell,
Mark Krause produced a pamphlet (guide)which explains the hammer, valve etc.
Anyone interested should get this from Mark. Norm Larson may also carry
Mark's guide. I believe Mark originally intended to explain the Nazel 's
operation and how to adjust the Nazel. He also covers his home built
"Krause" hammer.
The valve used by Mark has two spools. One controls the lower end of the ram
cylinder and the other controls the top end. The spool contolling the top
end allows air to the top of the ram cylinder(for a hammer blow )or to
exhaust. The air comes from a "work" cylinder and the spool can split the
air between top cylinder and exhaust. In other words hard hit or no hit and
all points in between.
The spool which controls the lower part of the cylinder(to raise the ram)
does basically the same thing except it does not exhaust the air to the
atmosphere like the spool governing the top of the cylinder. This is
intended to keep the ram in the up position.( I believe self contained
hammers other than Nazel accomplish the same by allowing the vacuum created
on the downstroke of the work cylinder to keep the ram up and the spool for
the lower end of the cylinder works just like the spool for the upper end.I
surmise this from the comments of others. I have been in Bob Bermans shop
and lusted for his nazel but dont have first hand experience with it or
other self contained hammers other than the one I am working on.)
The spools have a machined passageway crossway to the long axis. As the top
valve is rotated on its long axis, it directs air to the cylinder or
exhaust.It can be split 50/50 or 60/40 ,10/90 etc.

Shannell,your comments were basicaly correct except I dont know if this
would be described as a "closed system" because of the exhaust port and
balance valves. The work cylinder  does have, as you described, grooves in
both rods (it is a double rodded, double acting cylinder) to balance the air
in the system.
Pretty simple in concept.
Bob Bergman commented about the machining. I wish Mark could, as you
sugested, profitably make the valves for sale . He should benefit from his
work and this would get a lot of machines started so we could understand
their limitations or potential.
 Bob Berman's gracious comment in another post about my skill level is
undeserved. He is confusing me with my younger brother who is a tool and die
maker by training. I am the dumbass in the family with poor skills at most
things manual.
I made my valve but it certainly could have been done a lot better and in
much less time than I took. In any case, it was a nice comment by Bob.
I think the more challenging design feature may be how to drive the work
cylinder in a way that does not cause excessive noise, vibration , and
breakdown.The crank and connecting rod have to be pretty heavy and I think
the side force on the piston rod of the work cylinder will be a problem. I
would love to see the set up on a Nazel. I bet it is pretty sturdy.
As I said previously, this is my understanding. I am not an engineer so I
dont want to debate any of the above. I too would be interested in
constructive suggestions. Hope this is helpful.
Bob
( the better looking brother)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shannell Sugrue" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer

>   I want to know about the valve, I understand there is a booklet
available
> with details on how it works and I dont want to circumvent anyone making a
> little money on their own ideas but is this a new design or just a rehash
of
> how factories have made their hammer valving, I know M.Kruse did make it
> simpler so mabey thats whats different.
>    I understand it feeds a proportion of the air to the driven cyl
depending
> on throttle setting and the rest is fed to the other side of the pumping
> cylinder and its a pretty much closed system, the same air is used and any
> losses are regained through check valves. Is this sorta close??
>    I have an idea in my head of how a valve like this might be made but I
> could be way off so seeing one dismantled would be very interesting.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Smolen" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: 01 December, 2002 11:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer
>
>
> > To those who asked for nazeloid information, I will respond on the list
,
> > but warn that I am neither a machinist or engineer so I can only comment
> on
> > my experience.I want to avoid a lot of "why didnt you do it this way"
> kinds
> > of questions. There are no doubt better ways than mine and I only know
> what
> > I did. I dont recommend to others. They can form their own opinions.
> >
> > I havent worked on the hammer for months but the size is approx. 40 lb
> ram,3
> > h.p. motor, 4" drive cylinder and 2 " ram cylinder. The stroke on the
> drive
> > cylinder is about 6" and I believe the ports are standard 3/8 fittings.
I
> > machined a valve as described in Mark's book and based on additional
info
> I
> > obtained from several E mails to him. Mark has been extremely helpful
and
> > generous with his knowledge. I take no credit for any good ideas or
> insight
> > on the project.If it was good, I learned from Mark. If bad, it is my own
> > mistake.
> >
> > Bob Schade's points re  few nazeloids operating is true and surprising,
> but
> > I hope one of us will soon have an operating model. John Larson on the
> > Keenjunk site has posted quite a lot . He has a larger working hammer.
> > Search the archives there before you ask questions which have probably
> > already been covered  by John. If you are still interested, I will
comment
> > on line to my experience.
> > Keep pounding.
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Shannell Sugrue" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 12:23 AM
> > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer
> >
> >
> > > Yeah, keep it on list, Im interested in building a nazel like hammer
one
> > day
> > > and I dont yet understand how the valving on these work.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ed F" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: 30 November, 2002 10:17 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer
> > >
> > >
> > > > Why not on the list?  This stuff is interesting
> > > > Ed
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Bob Smolen" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Steve and Mike,
> > > > > I have built a nazeloid based on Mark's design and help. I need to
> > > enlarge
> > > > > the ports, but otherwise I belive it will work like Mark's. If
> > > intereted,
> > > > > contact me off the list if you have any questions. I am not expert
> > ,but
> > > I
> > > > > have made plenty of mistakes to learn from.
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Steve Smith" <[email protected]>
> > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 1:55 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [TheForge] Krause/Nazel type air hammer
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > The idea is pretty straightforward. You use a motor to drive a
> > double
> > > > > > acting air cylinder. This is connected to the ram air cylinder
> (also
> > > > > > double acting) via the air ports. The air provides the give in
the
> > > > > > hammer that is done in a Little Giant with a spring and toggle
> arms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The big advantage over the Kinyon style is control. The Kinyon
> > hammer
> > > > > > ram just bounces between top and bottom (or the top and the
work).
> > The
> > > > > > Kinyon can only push the ram from one side at a time (assuming I
> > > > > > understand how the Kinyon works...). The Krause/Nazel hammer
> applies
> > > air
> > > > > > to both sides of the piston. The side with the most pressure
> > dictates
> > > > > > which way the ram will move. The pressure can be reversed
> > immediately
> > > by
> > > > > > changing the foot treadle position (and altering the balance of
> > > > > > pressure). This makes it much more responsive.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is also a way to avoid buying a very large compressor that I
> > don't
> > > > > > have a lot of other use for. Since I'm doing this for fun, I get
> to
> > > > > > build it myself and mess around with something different.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > > mike wolfe wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steve Smith wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> I'm starting on building a Krause/Nazel type air hammer,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steve:
> > > > > > > Tell me more about the Krause/Nazel type air hammer, I had
seen
> it
> > > in
> > > > > > > operation at the conference, and I had been waiting for Mark
to
> go
> > > > > > > further with its evolution, I also thought "Sid" was getting
> > > involved
> > > > > > > with the project a while back.
> > > > > > > I have not heard anything for a while until you had talked of
> it.
> > > > > > > Are there new plans or new developments about the Krause/Nazel
> > type
> > > > air
> > > > > > > hammer.
> > > > > > > Any info would be wonderful..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > Mike Wolfe
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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