[SkyHub] 5 secs between transmissions

Sat Apr 10 16:50:12 EDT 2021

Thanks Skyler, 

Great reminder of the complexity and hoops that are jumped through just so we can key up and have magic happen. 
And thanks for all you folks do to keep the whole package running. ‘Preciate ya!!!

Steve K. 

On Apr 10, 2021, at 2:24 PM, Skyler F <electricity440 at gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 1:27 PM Harold Hallikainen <harold at mai.hallikainen.org> wrote:
> Where are the delays being introduced in the system? Why is digital slower
> than analog?

Harold, 

There are many issues with the SkyHub on delays and link issues. Some of which we can control, and some of which we have no control over. Out of the things we can control, I can hope we figure out a solution. Here are a list of problems. 

1. 449.450.
This repeater is probably the toughest repeater to use on the SkyHub and is in DIRE NEED of being fixed. It is linked in to the hub via a node radio on it's frequency. The repeater has courtesy tones and CW ID that we don't want to hear through the network, so how do we filter that out? The way we filter it out by having the repeater ONLY send its 127.3 TX CTCSS code when a user has keyed up the repeater. All other traffic such as hang times, CW ID, announcements, and courtesy tones are theoretically supposed to have NO TX CTCSS on the repeater. 

Unfortunately, the repeaters controller has a glitch in it, and it takes anywhere between 0.5 and 5 seconds to begin transmitting TX CTCSS tone. This causes users to be cut off on the rest of the system and not be heard unless they hold the PTT trigger forever. We are trying to find a solution to get internet at the site and link AllStar directly into the controller to get the system both on full duplex, and eliminate the controller issues. Trying to work with RMHAM has been tough because although they have IP up there, they don't provide public internet, and we don't have any other endpoints with public internet. 

2. Digital Delays on the hub. 
The hub takes maybe 0.5 to 1 second to do the analog to digital conversion. We are running many software packages on the physical hub computer, and it just has to run through all of them. This is what has to happen when someone keys up on analog and comes out digital. The route a packet would have to do if someone comes in on Analog and out on a fusion hotspot is as follows:

Analog Repeater ---> AllStar Link node --> Internet --> SkyHub AllStar 46079 --> Analog_Bridge --> MMDVM_bridge --> HBLink  --> MMDVM_Bridge_Ysf ---> YSF_Reflector --> Internet ---> Fusion Hotspot. 

A second or so delay for this is honestly not too bad, and just is what it is. 

3. Digital Delays on the Wires-X Network. 

Unfortunately, to use the Wires-X network, we cannot host our own server. This is held by Yaesu on their end, and we have no control of it. This is actually where most of our delays come from. We have to run a physical RF link to convert the open source YSF_Reflector to the WIRES-X network. Once audio comes onto the fusion servers, it takes a variable 1 second to 6 seconds for the audio to come back out. So someone on 449.625 for example may be 6 seconds ahead of someone on 448.350. We have no control of the WIRES-X network, and this is all on Yaesu, I don't know why the delays are so awful on their network.

4. PTT Release

This is the weirdest glitch because it really should not happen, but for some reason, I believe in the Analog_Bridge software, if you unkey right after you are done talking without waiting a 1/2 second, the audio will get cut off. For some reason the end-of-transmission signal cuts the audio out before the software is finished processing the audio and doing the analog to digital conversion. I hope they fix this on a software update. 

5. HALF-DUPLEX. 

AllStar Link has a huge advantage of being full-duplex. Many of our analog repeaters allow users to talk while other users are talking, and it will mix the audio of the remote station. That way if two stations are talking on two different links, you can actually hear both people at the same time and tell that they are doubling! Unfortunately, with digital, we lose all of this. 

If two people talk at the same time, it is basically whoever keyed up first. If they both are pretty similar on who keyed up first, the packets of the station who was slightly behind will be completely dropped and the other station will not know. To make this even more challenging, if the stations are on two opposite ends, such as on Wires-X and the servers are being a bit laggy and have a 6 second delay, you won't even know the other person has started talking until 6 seconds after they have, and that could completely clobber you!

Summary:
The delays are there, and they stink, but we have a few things to maybe help this a little. First is fixing 449.450, making it full duplex with internet at the site. Second, there is also a package called analog_reflector, which will be the backbone for al digital modes instead of using allstar as the backbone. This may help speed things up a little and i'm beginning to experiment with this. 

hope the info helped
skyler

On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 1:27 PM Harold Hallikainen <harold at mai.hallikainen.org> wrote:
> Where are the delays being introduced in the system? Why is digital slower
> than analog?
> 
> Harold
> 
> 
> > If we wait 5 seconds people will think weâ€™re gone and start talking when
> > itâ€™s our turn. Canâ€™t have that.
> >
> > Over.
> >
> > Cris Alexander
> >
> > Sent from my amazing iPhone 12.
> >
> >> On Apr 10, 2021, at 10:58 AM, Greg Liverman <greg.liverman at live.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> ï»¿
> >> This is an issue with any linked repeater system, even analog repeaters
> >> with analog links, like ColCon, CRA, CMRG, etc.
> >>
> >> Two operators on the same repeater will almost always beat out an
> >> operator on a remote repeater unless they leave space between
> >> transmissions..
> >>
> >>
> >> Greg
> >>
> >> KÃ˜MGL
> >> DM78
> >> greg.liverman at live.com
> >> +1 719.689.0787 (office)
> >> +1 719.330.9068 (cell)
> >>
> >> From: skyhub-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> >> [mailto:skyhub-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jack Roland
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2021 10:32
> >> To: skyhub at mailman.qth.net
> >> Subject: [SkyHub] 5 secs between transmissions
> >>
> >> One more weekend note regarding SkyHubLink!
> >>
> >> It is VERY IMPORTANT that we all try to remember to leave 5 seconds
> >> between transmissions.
> >>
> >> Digital users are having a tough time being heard when analog
> >> conversations are going on, just part of the nature of the beast!
> >>
> >> Being quick on the trigger will not allow others to be heard, and while
> >> old habits are hard to break, (and I am guilty too) we really need to
> >> remember this as a courtesy to other operators, just good amateur
> >> practice.
> >>
> >> ALSO, when in an extended QSO, which by the way are VERY WELCOME, please
> >> ask if anyone else needs to use a repeater linked in every so often.
> >>
> >> Thanks for your attention to these guidelines, it helps everyone since
> >> we have so many users and repeaters!  Just makes it ALL MORE FUN!
> >>
> >> 73â€™
> >> Jack
> >>
> >> Jack E. Roland, KEÃ˜VH
> >> www.ke0vh.com
> >> www.skyhublink.com
> >> Cell: 303-704-3290
> >> HamshackHotline #12113
> >> Wheat Ridge CO
> >>
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
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> >>
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> 
> -- 
> FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com
> Not sent from an iPhone.
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