[Scan-DC] Re: Firefighter radios did not work in tunne l du r ing Metro smoke incident ·

[Jeff Krauss]

Here's an NTSB report of a similar subway accident:
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RAR0702.pdf
And then there was this incident:
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RAR8206.pdf

They spend some effort on documenting Emergency Response.

At 06:38 PM 1/14/2015, Andrew Clegg wrote:
>I'll be surprised if the NTSB investigation 
>includes any investigation of radio issues.
> > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 17:32:57 -0500
> > To: edtobias at comcast.net
> > From: jeff at krauss.ws
> > CC: scan-dc at mailman.qth.net
> > Subject: [Scan-DC]  Re:  Firefighter radios 
> did not work in tunne l du r ing Metro smoke incident ·
> >
> > Tunnel antenna systems are complicated things.
> > See
> > 
> http://www.researchgate.net/publication/3156527_Measurements_and_Modeling_of_Distributed_Antenna_Systems_in_Railway_Tunnels
> > Maybe the antenna system was poorly designed, with large coverage gaps.
> > Maybe the antenna system introduces phase noise or group delay
> > distortion that affects decryption capability.
> > Just saying "not working" may be insufficient.
> > Those are issues for the NTSB investigation.
> >
> >
> > At 04:53 PM 1/14/2015, Ed Tobias wrote:
> > >Yes, that's been reported by a number of news organizations.
> > >However, if the tunnel repeaters weren't working, as has also been
> > >reported, there would be a lack of comms to the command post,
> > >whether encrypted or not.
> > >
> > >I spent 40 years in the DC news media and have been listening to
> > >public safety radio for 50+ years. I firmly oppose encryption on
> > >routine public safety channels. However, I have to wonder whether
> > >news reports that are focusing on encrypted radios as a possible
> > >cause of the comms problems are doing so because media members are
> > >unhappy about the encryption and they're trying to make a case against it.
> > >
> > >The question that should be asked is "did the repeaters fail and, if
> > >so, why?"  Maybe encryption is a factor, maybe not.
> > >
> > >Ed
> > >
> > >Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Jan 14, 2015, at 3:34 PM, "Thomas J. Dalrymple"
> > > <tjdalrymple at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I heard this on WTOP around 2pm, but have not found it on their
> > > website yet.
> > > >
> > > > Encrypted radios were not working in the tunnels, and firefighters
> > > > resorted to runners to deliver communications from the site to
> > > > firefighters outside.
> > > >
> > > > Tom D.
> > > >
> > > >> On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Ed 
> Tobias <edtobias at comcast.net> wrote:
> > > >> The problem, (at least one of them), seems to have been that the
> > > in-tunnel repeaters were out of service. That would have made it
> > > difficult, if not impossible, to communicate from tunnel to command
> > > post or along long stretches of tunnel.
> > > >>
> > > >> Montgomery used to send a Btl Chief to the Command Center at
> > > Metro Hq to help coordinate incidents. Not sure if they still do or
> > > if DC does that.
> > > >>
> > > >> The Rail70x units are, I believe, MCFD officers with specialized
> > > training for Metro incidents.   Don't confuse them with NCR70x
> > > units, who carry radio caches for use in major incidents involving
> > > multiple jurisdictions.
> > > >>
> > > >> Ed
> > > >>
> > > >> Sent from my iPhone
> > > >>
> > > >>> On Jan 13, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Jeff Krauss <jeff at krauss.ws> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> After viewing the Fox5 piece by Paul Wagner, I'm sure you're correct.
> > > >>> He said that the units in the tunnel couldn't communicate with
> > > the incident commander at street level.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Which means that the DCFD command structure was deficient.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> If I recall, the Montgomery County FD procedure is to assign a
> > > "Forward Incident Commander" (they don't use that term) at the
> > > stationmaster's kiosk, whose job includes communications between
> > > units in the tunnel and the command post upstairs.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Also, when Montgomery County has a Metro incident, I hear units
> > > come up on the air identifying themselves as "Rail 704" and similar
> > > callsigns.  Not clear whether they are County FD employees or WMATA
> > > employees.  At least some of them seem to carry caches of radios to
> > > assist in radio communications between the fire department and
> > > Metro dispatchers.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> At 08:07 PM 1/13/2015, djoneses wrote:
> > > >>>> I would think that this quote from the 
> Fox5 story answers your question:
> > > >>>> "firefighters used line of sight communication in the
> > > tunnel."  Presumably
> > > >>>> that means that simplex i.e. line of sight channels were used.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>> From: Scan-DC 
> [mailto:scan-dc-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jeff
> > > >>>> Krauss
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