[Scan-DC] Firefighter radios did not work in tunne l du r ing Metro smoke incident ·

[Ed Tobias]

I wouldn't be.  I'd think they'd review those comms just as they review ATC comms when investigating an air incident.



On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:38 PM, Andrew Clegg <andrew_w_clegg at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I'll be surprised if the NTSB investigation includes any investigation of radio issues.
>> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 17:32:57 -0500
>> To: edtobias at comcast.net
>> From: jeff at krauss.ws
>> CC: scan-dc at mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: [Scan-DC]  Re:  Firefighter radios did not work in tunne l du r ing Metro smoke incident ·
>> 
>> Tunnel antenna systems are complicated things.
>> See 
>> http://www.researchgate.net/publication/3156527_Measurements_and_Modeling_of_Distributed_Antenna_Systems_in_Railway_Tunnels
>> Maybe the antenna system was poorly designed, with large coverage gaps.
>> Maybe the antenna system introduces phase noise or group delay 
>> distortion that affects decryption capability.
>> Just saying "not working" may be insufficient.
>> Those are issues for the NTSB investigation.
>> 
>> 
>> At 04:53 PM 1/14/2015, Ed Tobias wrote:
>>> Yes, that's been reported by a number of news organizations. 
>>> However, if the tunnel repeaters weren't working, as has also been 
>>> reported, there would be a lack of comms to the command post, 
>>> whether encrypted or not.
>>> 
>>> I spent 40 years in the DC news media and have been listening to 
>>> public safety radio for 50+ years. I firmly oppose encryption on 
>>> routine public safety channels. However, I have to wonder whether 
>>> news reports that are focusing on encrypted radios as a possible 
>>> cause of the comms problems are doing so because media members are 
>>> unhappy about the encryption and they're trying to make a case against it.
>>> 
>>> The question that should be asked is "did the repeaters fail and, if 
>>> so, why?"  Maybe encryption is a factor, maybe not.
>>> 
>>> Ed
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 3:34 PM, "Thomas J. Dalrymple" 
>>> <tjdalrymple at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I heard this on WTOP around 2pm, but have not found it on their 
>>> website yet.
>>>> 
>>>> Encrypted radios were not working in the tunnels, and firefighters
>>>> resorted to runners to deliver communications from the site to
>>>> firefighters outside.
>>>> 
>>>> Tom D.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Ed Tobias <edtobias at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> The problem, (at least one of them), seems to have been that the 
>>> in-tunnel repeaters were out of service. That would have made it 
>>> difficult, if not impossible, to communicate from tunnel to command 
>>> post or along long stretches of tunnel.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Montgomery used to send a Btl Chief to the Command Center at 
>>> Metro Hq to help coordinate incidents. Not sure if they still do or 
>>> if DC does that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The Rail70x units are, I believe, MCFD officers with specialized 
>>> training for Metro incidents.   Don't confuse them with NCR70x 
>>> units, who carry radio caches for use in major incidents involving 
>>> multiple jurisdictions.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ed
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jan 13, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Jeff Krauss <jeff at krauss.ws> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> After viewing the Fox5 piece by Paul Wagner, I'm sure you're correct.
>>>>>> He said that the units in the tunnel couldn't communicate with 
>>> the incident commander at street level.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Which means that the DCFD command structure was deficient.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If I recall, the Montgomery County FD procedure is to assign a 
>>> "Forward Incident Commander" (they don't use that term) at the 
>>> stationmaster's kiosk, whose job includes communications between 
>>> units in the tunnel and the command post upstairs.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Also, when Montgomery County has a Metro incident, I hear units 
>>> come up on the air identifying themselves as "Rail 704" and similar 
>>> callsigns.  Not clear whether they are County FD employees or WMATA 
>>> employees.  At least some of them seem to carry caches of radios to 
>>> assist in radio communications between the fire department and 
>>> Metro dispatchers.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> At 08:07 PM 1/13/2015, djoneses wrote:
>>>>>>> I would think that this quote from the Fox5 story answers your question:
>>>>>>> "firefighters used line of sight communication in the 
>>> tunnel."  Presumably
>>>>>>> that means that simplex i.e. line of sight channels were used.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Scan-DC [mailto:scan-dc-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jeff
>>>>>>> Krauss
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