[Scan-DC] Military plane crashes in Augusta County, Virginia...more

Thu Aug 28 17:25:33 EDT 2014

I could not agree more. The lack of training and command and control makes
interoperability fail.

Last fall/winter, Annapolis PD was doing surveillance on a vehicle. Vehicle
fled and started a chase. Subject was believed to be armed.  The chase went
through about 3 different districts/jurisdictions. AAPD, MSP, APD, and
Sheriffs Office assisted with the chase and then bailout.

No one switched to one channel. They was a lot of confusion and also a
couple dangerous incidents that almost happened because everyone was not on
the same talkgroup.

APD operated on their tac (13F). AAPD Western operated on 11C, AAPD Eastern
assisted because it was on the line. Eastern used their talkgroup 11B. MSP
operated on their talkgroup. And sheriffs operated on 11C.

All the departments listed above (Annapolis PD, MSP, Anne Arundel County
Police, Sheriffs Office) all have the AACO district talkgroups and the Zone
11 Tac Channels (H,I,J,K,L,M).

But do to lack of training and command and control, interoperability
failed.

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 3:29 PM, Sean Hoyden <sean.hoyden at gmail.com> wrote:

> One of the problems in "interoperability" isn't the technical feasibility
> as much as it is the leadership and accountability to use it.  As is the
> case in many of these situations, it is a gaggle of different agencies
> responding, all with their own procedures and predispositions about who
> they work for.
>
> I've arrived on scenes where multiple agencies are responding several
> times, only to find out that the scene commander (if there even is one) has
> not held a planning brief with section leaders and chiefs to work out a
> quick comm plan.  Worse yet, many state and local agencies don't even HAVE
> an inter-agency comm procedure to know which radio or channels they should
> be monitoring.
>
> Most scene commanders will tell you, "In an emergency, I don't have time to
> deal with those problems, I have to coordinate a response!"  Well chief,
> how exactly do you coordinate a response if all of your responders are not
> working from the same playbook, or the same communications channel?
>
> To make matters worse, your responders often don't know how to use the
> equipment they have.  I've worked with VSP, Fairfax County PD, DHS, and
> even FBI guys that don't know anything about their radios beyond the
> O-N-O-F-F Discriminator Switch and the volume knob.  They start their shift
> by turning the radio on, and leaving it on, if their MDT doesn't tell them
> where to go and when, they'd probably sit in the parking lot at the
> precinct for their entire shift.  I'm not generalizing ALL law enforcement
> people here, not by a long shot, but one has to be careful how easily they
> assign technical competency to everyone just because they made it through
> their respective service academy and put a uniform on.
>
> I helped with an exercise 2 years ago which dealt with a simulated
> terrorist attack, I won't name names or agencies, but one officer I spoke
> with during the exercise openly admitted that he had no idea how to do
> anything with his radio that would set up the talk groups for all the other
> agencies.  His rationale?  "I'll never have to use it anyways."
>
> That all being said, I'd be surprised if the pilot was armed at all.  Hell,
> even aircrews over in the Persian Gulf have been known to fly without their
> sidearms.  I just talked to a guy yesterday who used to fly A-10's, and he
> said that he regularly flew into Iraq and Afghanistan without his pistol.
> He figured that if he was going to go down in his flying tank, he was going
> to be dead before he hit the ground or he was going to fly the plane into
> the bad guys.  So on a ferry mission stateside, I'd be surprised if the
> pilot didn't see having a pistol with him as just another piece of crap to
> share the cockpit with.
>
> Sean
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 2:30 PM, John Wilson <w4uvv at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Once again I guess I am the skunk at the picnic but here are my comments
> > about yesterday's comms I heard and more importantly those that never
> > happened.  I am retired where everyday is a holiday.  I have 6 tower
> > mounted mast mounted preamped Scantennas at about 115 ft.  I hear a
> lot.  I
> > have a PSR 600, 3 996XTs, 1 396XT and several R7000s for analog
> reception.
> > My STARS reception is Div 1, 3, and 5 unless I use my DMR computer/radio
> > system.  Then I can receive a few voice repeaters from Div 2..  Because
> the
> > same STARS CC was assigned by the radio techs for both the Waverly and
> Fork
> > Mtn., STARS sites my reception from Fork Mtn. are the voice repeaters
> > programed for conventional reception.  I also can hear a couple of the
> Bear
> > Den Mtn. voice repeaters.  The PSR600 and one 996XT are dedicated solely
> > for STARS scanning reception, one 996XT for local and area scanning and
> one
> > 996XT dedicated to scanning only federal the vhf/uhf ranges.
> >
> > As usual my comments and opinions are subject to error and correction.
> > About 1000 yesterday I started hearing some Richmond VSP short cryptic
> type
> > voice comms which VSP uses when they don't want to say anything more
> about
> > a situation than necessary.  I concluded it was a possible airplane
> crash.
> > Soon thereafter I heard "Legend 7 " wheels up from Mountain Empire AP
> which
> > is a relatively short runway airport at Marion which is close to I81.
> DMA
> > comms always get my attention as the users I previously have heard are
> > selected Army Reserve/National Guard and of late the Va. Defense Force
> > units.  At first I thought it was a drill as there was not the sense of
> > emergency heard like when a trooper is pursuing a suspect who bails and
> > runs.  I concluded it was not a drill.  As best I could determine control
> > was established at the Chesterfield Co. AP. Control was "DMA Control" and
> > occasionally "Chesterfield Ops" was also heard on DMA talkgroup 4529
> > talking to unknown DMA military person on scene at Deerfield, VA.
> >
> >  In my opinion DMA had little if any interoperability  comms with VSP or
> > any other STARS user.  If it happened I never heard them which is
> possible
> > depending on site affiliations originally programed by the STARS radio
> > techs..  STARS VSP comms were VSP comms only and DMA comms were DMA comms
> > only..
> >
> > Excuse me, but for STARS VSP Div 3 talkgroup 6138 "INOP PS3" "VSP MUTUAL
> > AID PUBLIC SERVICE" could have been used IF the Dept. of Military Affairs
> > radios had been programmed for such affiliation. Each STARS radio costs
> > about $6,000 each.  There are 16 channels per zone operation.  Up to 32
> > zones user switch selectable are available.  Zone 21 selection allows
> comms
> > on VCALL on ch. 1 and VTACS 11-14 on channels 2-5.  Rarely are
> > interoperability comms attempted on STARS.  Each STARS user is a "world
> to
> > themselves".  I occasionally hear testing on a few interoperability
> > talkgroups, but I heard nothing yesterday on any of the STARS
> > interoperability talkgroups.   VSP for sure has the capability.  Once
> again
> > these great expensive comm systems work fine on paper but maybe not
> always
> > so great in reality.
> >
> > To be fair I was surprised at the relatively dependable STARS comms from
> > the aircraft.  Many STARS sites are the old analog VSP sites many of
> which
> > are on mountaintops such as the one on Bear Den Mtn. in Augusta Co.,
> which
> > was probably the one used most frequently. STARS radios, like cellphones,
> > constantly search for the strongest site received signal.
> >
> > So all search aircraft could talk to each other using their vhf aviation
> > radios on 123.0250 mhz. and the DMA a/c additionally on STARS only to
> other
> > DMA aircraft and DMA Command.  In eastern Virginia all Medflight type
> > radios are PRE_PROGRAMED for certain frequencies and not frequency
> > changeable "on the fly".  That's why my county has to have an EMS
> ambulance
> > on site to talk to Medflight on "statewide" as the fire engines cannot
> > communication on 155.2050 mhz. "statewide".  That's also why when on
> scene
> > Medflights request the ground POC to switch to 155.2050 mhz. "statewide"
> > which every VFD and EMS licensed entity is required to have.
> >
> > STARS users include but are not limited to VSP, DMA,F&G, FORESTRY, VDEM,
> > DC&R and DEQ.  These would be appropriate users for interoperability
> comms
> > yesterday but I didn't hear a peep from any except VSP and DMA and maybe
> a
> > F&G officer signing in/off duty..  S&R units in Virginia I have heard use
> > 155.2050 mhz. base/mobile simplex or sometimes portables only.
> >
> > In that mountainous terrain a mountaintop repeater such as the Forestry
> > Service uses for forest fire comms are required.  We ham operators know
> the
> > joy and thrill of vhf/uhf mountaintop simplex and/or repeater comms and
> > also know what happens when we drop down on the side to the bottom of a
> > mountain.  Checking my Virginia frequency database I see numerous VFD's
> and
> > EMS and law enforcement but no county EOC.  Looks like Augusta Co. needs
> > one.  If any circumstance required interoperability comms it was
> yesterday.
> > Looks like a few organizational "Lessons Learned" meetings will occur
> after
> > the happenings yesterday.
> >
> >  The VSP mobile comm vehicle mentioned sounds like one of the VSP's
> > divisions' mobile 800 mhz. frequency cell type repeater.  They typically
> > are used at car races and the state fair for on site comms and not using
> > the STARS system..  A mobile unit is assigned to each VSP division.
> >
> > The "limited' cellphone reception posted was a direct quote from the DMA
> > a/c helicopter on scene at Deerfield early yesterday morning.
> >
> > Searching continues today.  One or more aircraft continue searching while
> > other aircraft fly Shenandoah airport for refueling.  From what little I
> > heard from different sources was the pilot was flying to New Orleans to
> > have his a/c radar updated.  He was flying at 43,000 ft. and supposedly
> > ejected at 1,800 ft.  Ejection basically involves sitting on top of an
> > artillery shell going from zero to over 200 miles an hour in a few
> > seconds.  The plane appeared to impact almost vertically and depending at
> > what altitude he ejected he could be a significant distance from the
> crash
> > site.  He may have a few flares, survival pistol, mirror, and I thought a
> > portable on 243 mhz.  I don't know whether the military has converted to
> > the 400 mhz. frequency or not.   If he was injured and is below the tree
> > line it will be very difficult to find him from the air.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bruce Harper wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 12:56 PM, John Wilson wrote:
> >>
> >>  Limited cellphone and STARS coverage in the mountainous search area.
> >>>
> >> "Limited" doesn't begin to describe it -- "nonexistent" is a better
> >> description. The Va. Department of Emergency Management (VDEM) put out
> >> the call for search and rescue groups to send personnel to conduct the
> >> ground search, which resulted in members from multiple groups arriving
> >> at the Deerfield Volunteer Fire Department. There were about 10 of us
> >> from the Southwest Virginia Mountain Rescue Group (SWVaMRG). I arrived
> >> on the scene about 6 p.m. and we finally headed out on a task around
> >> 8:30 p.m. There were seven helicopters there conducting air searches
> >> -- 1 VSP, 1 U.S. Customs, 1 unmarked (but folks who ran the tail
> >> number got a return to U.S. Governement -- comments were that it was
> >> either the FBI HRT or Homeland Security), plus a variety of military
> >> copters. Since I'm near the bottom of the chain, there isn't much more
> >> that I know. The search was a joint operation being run by the
> >> military (don't know if VA National Guard, U.S., or who), the Virginia
> >> State Police, and VDEM (since that is where the SAR expertise is). Our
> >> comms were handled by a trooper on our search team, who was working on
> >> Appomatox channels. The state radio cache was brought in (from
> >> Harrisonburg, I heard someone say) but I don't know if those were
> >> being distributed. There was one mast antenna erected, but I don't
> >> know if it was for ground comms or air comms. Between the troopers and
> >> SAR personnel, there were at least 100 people involved (mainly waiting
> >> around until search areas were narrowed down), along with a couple of
> >> FBI agents (called in from Charlottesville mainly to provide
> >> manpower), various military types, plus support personnel from the
> >> various agencies and the local volunteer fire and rescue folks. There
> >> were also equine searchers in the mix. Corrine Geller from VSP was the
> >> PIO for the operation. There were some young people from the Civil Air
> >> Patrol there when I bailed around midnight. Search  operations were
> >> suspended at midnight and were starting up again at 8 this morning
> >> (but after hitting the bed at 3:30, I wasn't about to get up a 5:30
> >> for a 6 a.m. departure).
> >>
> >> Bruce in Blacksburg
> >>
> >> Bruce Harper
> >> Search Team Member
> >> Southwest Virginia Mountain Rescue Group
> >> http://swvamrg.blacksburgrescue.org/
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>
> --
>
>
>
>
> Sean Hoyden
> 703.899.8893
>
> "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."  -- Benjamin Franklin
>
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