[Scan-DC] Arlington setting up landing zone

Tue May 12 10:51:46 EDT 2009

I agree it appears ground transport would be faster at times and the FD is very aware of when it is and isnt.  

I dont know about the Aircare/Lifeflight helo procedures and timing, and certainly not the incident you referred to and why it took so long for the helo to be dispatched,  but for FCPD from opening the hangar doors and pushing out to the pad to being on site anywhere in the county takes less than five minutes.

but it isnt simply a matter of drive time.  there is quite a "calculus" to determine if necessary or not.  I dont remember all the details but it includes the nature of the injury, what ground units are available, what medical center is available, what time of day/ground traffic is, etc.  

Also remember that one of the most important, if not the most important factor is the level of care the helo paramedic is trained, equipped and authorized to provide which is vastly higher than ALS medics and units.  These advanced procedures and medicines add tens of minutes to the critical care time and just cannot be done on the ground.

The helo medical care is higher than the ground units because the medical director has much more control over the helo medics and their training due to numbers.  There are hundreds of ground medics/paramedics but only a handful of helo medics (which are police officers BTW, not FD).  Because there are so few the medical director can actually interact with each one of them during their training and evaluations which he cannot do with the hundreds of ground paramedics, resulting in the helo medics receiving the authorization to do more and use different medicines.

so, the math becomes "watch my life slip away during the 15-20 minutes of waiting for  medical care while driving to the hospital" or "get 30 minutes added to your 'golden hour' by receiving the care I need immediately but arrive at the hospital 10 minutes later." 

they dont call them "meat wagons" for nothing.

> From: lloydde at verizon.net
> To: Scan-DC at mailman.qth.net
> Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 20:17:04 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Scan-DC] Arlington setting up landing zone
> 
> I'm sure there is a better way (mobile trauma room), though I look back at
> EMS and just having Paramedics is a HUGE improvement. It used to be that
> Ambulances were just transport vehicles--now they are almost hospitals on
> wheels. I can definitely see where it would seem that air transport may not
> seem the fastest option, though I offer: 
> 
> Usually (99%) of the time, a patient assessment is made and a chopper is
> called before a rescue effort has begun... and it usually takes the full
> time until the chopper gets on-scene before the patient is ready to be
> transported. Listening on the scanner the time can seem like an eternity.
> There is a LOT of prep work that is required and usually involves just
> extracting the patient from the wreck, which has to be done slowly to
> prevent more injury. Also, there is a lot of patient care (stabilization)
> that is performed by the on-scene medics as well... 
> 
> Maybe I was lucky because Trooper 8 was right around the corner, though I
> can't imagine that other parts of the county were that much further away. 
> 
> 
> David 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scan-dc-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:scan-dc-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Andrew Clegg
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 19:30 
> To: Travis; scan-dc at mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Scan-DC] Arlington setting up landing zone
> 
> I have to presume that the first responders on this list know better than I 
> do, but my experiences in listening to helicopter transports on the scanner 
> are more in line with what Travis says. By the time they've called for the 
> medevac, the thing has gotten in the air, they've scoped out a landing zone,
> 
> they've packaged the patient in an ambulance for transport to the landing 
> zone, they've driven to the landing zone, unloaded the patient from the 
> ambulance and put them in the helicopter, the helicopter takes off and flies
> 
> to the hospital, the helicopter lands at the helipad, the patient is 
> unloaded, and finally gotten inside... the patient could have been there a 
> lot sooner by ground. Like Travis, I've heard incidents where it takes a 
> long time for all of this to transpire -- 45 minutes or more. And when the 
> incident is 10 miles or less by ground to the hospital, I could ride my bike
> 
> to the hospital faster than the helo ultimately makes it there.
> 
> I don't like to be counter-culture, but I really am having a hard time 
> buying the time-to-hospital arguments for helicopter transport here in the 
> city. Out in the rural areas and some of the far suburbs, it absolutely 
> makes sense. But in the middle of Arlington on a Sunday afternoon (for 
> example), I just can't buy it.
> 
> Then you add all the safety problems these things have been having...
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Travis" <freqhopping at earthlink.net>
> To: <scan-dc at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 6:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Scan-DC] Arlington setting up landing zone
> 
> 
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "michael rumberg" <m_c_rumberg at hotmail.com>
> >
> > 2. the helo is ridiculously faster transport - the helo can get to the
> > hospital way before a ground unit. The FCPD helo can go from Reston to
> > Mount Vernon in less than 5 minutes. As the crow flies 30 mph is WAY 
> > faster
> > than an average speed of 60 mph on the ground. And quite frankly, an
> > ambulance even after going on the beltway, will never actually get 
> > anywhere
> > near a true average speed for the entire trip at 60mph - even if there
> > really is "no traffic" on sunday afternoon.
> >
> > ___________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > This is not always the case. In many incidents I've listened to, a ground
> > transport to Fairfax Hosp from Loudoun would've been faster. The most
> > recent being the murder-suicide in Leesburg a few weeks ago. It was over 
> > an
> > hour from the time units arrived on scene to the time the bird arrived at
> > the hospital. The incident began before 5am. Aircare-3 was finally
> > airborne from Leesburg airport at 5:30 as I left my driveway for work. I
> > was in Tysons Corner 20 minutes later, another 5 and I could be at the
> > hospital. I don't even have lights or sirens. I was sitting in my office
> > for a while before Aircare flew by around 6:10 am.
> >
> > There's much more to it than point-to-point time. The bird has to get off
> > the ground most of the time. That there can take 10-15 minutes. I can 
> > see
> > Aircare-3 when it finally leaves Leesburg. Very rarely is it quickly 
> > after
> > the request has been made. Then once they're on the ground there is a 
> > whole
> > lot of packaging going on.
> >
> > The one reason why Fairfax-1 can respond so quick is because they are
> > airborne much of the time without an EMS mission.
> >
> >
> > Travis
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
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