[SADXA] The Promise and Problem with FT8
k7bhm
k7bhm at cox.net
Mon Sep 25 16:33:42 EDT 2017
The Promise and Problem with FT8
SADXA’ers...........
Well now, it finally took a little while to figure it all out !!!! After searching
the bands for those elusive FT8-Tromelin stations that were being spotted on
DXSummit and DXScape by the hundreds, I finally realized what was going on.
People have been transmitting weird sounding signals on some frequencies,
but nobody know what frequency, because you can’t hear them. Each transmission
takes several seconds (10-15) to make contact with another station, but no one
know what stations are calling back....again because they can’t be heard!!!
Apparently they use their computers to read the messages, something like
reading e-mail messages.
So, I did a little research on my own. For our CADXA 6 Meter Challenge, I needed
3 more states to have all 50 for this year (AK, DE and WVA). I looked-up on QRZ.com
a few Hams in each of these states, and contacted them using my e-mail account on
my good ol’ HP computer, same as the “contacts” mentioned above. Now I figure that
my e-mail uses the WiFi to connect to the computer on a certain frequency, but we
don’t know that frequency....because we CAN’T HEAR IT...RIGHT !!! But we know
its there somewhere because we can read the screen on the monitor.
In my e-mail to each selected station, I gave my pertinent information and ask
if they can understand and copy my text OK??? I usually waited about 15-20 seconds
before I received a response. I then ask if they have 6 Meter capabilities, and that
I copied their previous message 5X9, and they all indicated that they had 6 Meter
capabilities. (Have to specify the frequency range in order to make a legit QSO).
Now remember that each side of the e-mail exchange took about 15 seconds, the
same as those phantom FT8 QSO’s above. I couldn’t “hear” the transmission or
responses, but I knew it was there because I could read my monitor screen as I sent
and received the messages.
So now that I have all 50 States on 6 Meters for the year, my next project will be
to “contact” all of the different JA prefixes to add to my DX and Grid numbers. This
may take a little while because there are sooo many JA prefixes. I just hope
the WiFi frequencies are not affected by the sun spots or E-layer propagation.
Isn’t this new Technology the Greatest!!!!
See ya’all on the bands, but only if I can hear ya’.
Kind’a blows the old Ham philosophy out of the water..............
“IF YOU CAN’T HEAR ‘EM, YOU CAN’T WORK ’EM”
73............Bob – K7BHM
Subject: Re: CADXA SHARE The Promise and Problem with FT8
For myself, I wouldn't call your senerio a qso if I didn't hear most of the qso/signal myself. And, at least I was there to press the TX button.To me, many of these qso's are machine to machine, or computer to computer contacts. And at times, no human intervention is necessary. Or, at least, this is what I understand of this digital mode.
If this if fine with you, ok. But it's not for me.
Ray,
N6VR
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: "Tony Rogozinski trogo at telegraphy.com [CADXA_SHARE1]" <CADXA_SHARE1 at yahoogroups.com>
Date: 9/20/17 2:32 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: CADXA_SHARE1 at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: CADXA SHARE The Promise and Problem with FT8
On the other hand there isn't all that much difference than when one receives an alarm that a rare station has been spotted....clicks on the spot...the receiver is set to the right frequency...and even maybe
the TX is split......if the op can hear even a smidgen of the desired station he taps the keyboard every time he desires to transmit....and MAYBE completes the QSO.....which automatically goes into the log
and lotw, etc.......and gets a confirmation perhaps immediately.................Hmmmmm.......I don't see much........... I'll try FT8 because it's different - at least I have to figure out how to set it all up and get
it to work.
Yeah, I'm an old fogey....and proud of it........
Tony W4OI/HK4T 60 years on the air
On 9/20/2017 5:21 PM, RSoifer1 at aol.com [CADXA_SHARE1] wrote:
In addition to the issues involving "Deep Search," I wonder how many "QSOs" are being "completed" via chat rooms these days. That isn't solely an issue for the JT modes, of course. Then there's Supercheck Partial. I can't tell you how many times I've called a DX station who can't quite get my call, and he just goes down the list until he reaches W2RS. At least he's trying to get my call over the radio, not the computer or cell phone.
BTW, Peter SM2CEW is an old friend of mine. When I was on 2m EME from NJ with 150 watts and a single Cushcraft Boomer -- all CW, I might add -- Peter was the guy with the smallest station to work me from Europe: 6 yagis. An outstanding CW op. He does well on 160 also.
73 Ray W2RS
srom: Jerry jdwothe at cox.net [CADXA_SHARE1] <CADXA_SHARE1 at yahoogroups.com
To: CADXA_SHARE1 mailto:CADXA_SHARE1 at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Sep 20, 2017 1:52 pm
Subject: Re: CADXA SHARE The Promise and Problem with FT8
aJerryW6XI
On 9/20/2017 1:35 PM, Wes Stewart n7ws at yahoo.com [CADXA_SHARE1] wrote:
Quoting myself from a slightly dated post to the SADXA reflector
"Somewhat against my principles I decided recently that it might be necessary to use these imaginary modes* someday to work a new one (SV/A). So I set out to investigate them. Initially, I tried receiving some JT65. I got it working okay just about the time FT8 was announced. So I began to play with FT8.
Since this is a DX club and I'm a DXer here are some observations from this perspective.
While a new revision is promised that will fix this, currently split operation is very difficult. To set the RX frequency to a desired station, one double-clicks the call in the band activity window and optionally sets the transmitter to active. Unfortunately, even if you've set your TX frequency to an empty spot, the double-click equates the TX to RX frequency. I haven't seen any real pileups yet but when they happen they will all be on the DX frequency. If you do call a guy off his frequency be prepared to have him answer you on your frequency after he double-clicks your call.
Guys have admitted that with the automatic features used, they have been out of the room and come back to find that they "worked" someone. One guy said that since this happened to him he wasn't going to QSL the other guy. I asked him why. It wasn't the other guy's fault that the reporter was out of the room, why shouldn't he get a QSL? He had no answer.
I've been operating search and pounce for DX only. I will only work previously worked stations on another band (slot). My experience with other digital modes, RTTY and PSK, is that a very high number of ops use LoTW and QSL rates are high. FT8 is another story. There was initial delay by some guys who didn't want to upload logs until ARRL recognized FT8 as a separate mode (WAS and VUCC only). Of course for DXCC purposes, it's just "Digital" or "Data." LoTW speaks of Data, but DXCC awards are for "Digital" although my certificate says "RTTY". Go figure. The ADIF standard and ARRL are now accepting FT8 as a mode, but the QSL rates are still abysmal.
Admittedly over a much long time, and with a few paper QSLs thrown in, my RTTY stats are 258 entities worked and 241 (93%) confirmed, mostly via LoTW. Contrast that with FT8 with 58 worked and 28 (48%) confirmed via LoTW.
I think I will set a personal standard, at least for awards purposes, that 1) I will be at the controls of the station. 2) I won't count any QSO that couldn't have been copied on CW. 3) I won't count any QSO that requires the software to have prior knowledge of the two station calls or could not be copied by an uninterested third party.
I'm sure there will be critics who declare that I'm an old fogy who is longing for the return of spark. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have worked on the cutting edge of new technologies for years. But, I also believe that there should be some value added by way of operator skill.
Wes N7WS
* I call them imaginary because the programs actually decode signals that aren't there (1), or use databases of callsigns as lookup tables to guess received calls (2).
In a discussion I had with one of the FT8 developers about the TX delay in Elecraft radios causing transmission to be delayed until after the decode window opened, he opined that it might not matter because the decoder can "decode" signals that it never heard.
(1) Quoting G4WJS: "For FT8 the net effect is that
up to about 5 seconds of a message may be missing yet still
be decoded. The amount missing can be either a truncation or
parts of the message below the decoding threshold. The FT8
message is structured with sync symbols at the start, middle
and end so missing the start or end may have less impact
than missing other parts since mostly sync symbols may be
lost and they contain no message information."
(2) Another compelling paper discusses JT65 as used on EME. http://www.sm2cew.com/Digital%20communications%20using%20minimal%20transfer.pdf "
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 9/20/17, RSoifer1 at aol.com [CADXA_SHARE1] mailto:CADXA_SHARE1 at yahoogroups.com wrote:
Subject: Re: CADXA SHARE The Promise and Problem with FT8
To: CADXA_SHARE1 at yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 9:32 AM
Hi Larry,
I wonder how much of this is simply due to the novelty
of it. You can see many FT8 QSOs which could easily have
been done on CW, and as you say, unsuccessful FT8 QSO
attempts that would have been completed on JT65. Once
everybody has worked what they're going to work on FT8,
will those who want real communication go back to CW, PSK,
RTTY etc.? Dare I mention SSB?
73 Ray W2RS
--
Tony W4OI/HK4T
Licenses Previously Held:
N7BG, K5LMJ, W7HZF, WA6BOU, W6JPC, K4KES
F7BK, VQ9AR, VP5AR, 9G5AR, TY5AR, CN2BG
HK0/HK1AR, HK4AR, 5V7BG, TU/N7BG, OJ0/N7BG
5B4/N7BG, ZC4BG, ZF2AR, HB9/N7BG
HK1AR and others
Founding Member of VooDude Contest Group
Member of Florida Contest Group
Member Central Arizona DX Association since 1977
Honorary Member Southern California DX Club 1968
Member Carolina DX Association
Referee WRTC 2000, 2002, 2006
I've been to 104 DXCC Countries
On the air since 1957 __._,_.___
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Posted by: "k7bhm" <k7bhm at cox.net>
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