[SADXA] Optimum GreyLine-Termination Angle for VK0EK - HEARD - 1st PASS PM GREYLINE DATA for 4/5 AZ.

[W7EXG (Bill)]

Jerry, 

Propagation tonight was NOT like the night of April 1st, (4/2 UTC)

Hope you HEARD something on 80/160 m. 

As of 9:30pm LOCAL tonight (9:30am LOCAL Heard time), here is what I
observed, for far-side SUNRISE Greyline propagation. 

I HEARD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM HEARD.. UNTIL ABOUT 6:44PM.. 1ST ON 40M. 
LONG PATH. THIS WAS AT LOCAL SUNSET. 

40M (Local Time)
4:30-6:44 -- NOTHING
7pm - weak but audible/workable (High noise level) Long Path
7:30pm to 8:30pm - Strongest Signal occurred during this timeframe. 
9pm - VERY WEAK
9:30pm NO SIGNAL

30M (Local Time)
7:20pm -- Nothing heard until this time -  LP
		Called CQ often.
8pm -- Weak, but workable. Stronger than 40m signals at this time.
9pm - Audible, but not workable
9:30pm.. no signal

20m and UP
HEARD was ON, but HEARD nothing. 

SUMMRY
- NO GREYLINE SIGNALS WERE HEARD on the SUNSET SUNNY Side UNTIL SUNSET.
- Lower Band Signals appeared before the higher band signals. NOTE: THIS
MIGHT BE BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT TRANSMITTING ON 30m. More Data Needed. 
-- Both 40m and 30m signals peaked about 8pm, local time, or about 1.25
hours AFTER near-SUNSET/far-SUNRISE
- Signals could still be heard 2.25 Hours after SUNSET/SUNRISE, but faded to
ZERO soon after. 
- 30m signal peak was stronger than the 40m signal, but both were near the
noise level this evening. 

CONCLUSIONS
-- For Far-Side SUNRISE Greyline Propagation (SUNSET LOCAL):
	1. Greyline signals cannot be heard until near-SUNSET. 
	2. Signals FROM the far-SUNRISE Side could be heard 2.25 hours AFTER
Far-side Sunrise! I find this significant.  
	5. This means 40m AND 30m Signals were propagating over daylight
ionized layer regions, until they entered into the Greyline.  
	6. Since Earth travels approximately 1000 mph at the Equator, it is
likely the daylight propagation region, after 2.25 hours was about 1000 or
more miles at HEARD. (Distance lower due to latitude - can calculate later).

	7. This suggests the D layer was building slowly, since perhaps the
F/F2 layers were still active on 30m AND 40m over the daylight distance. 
	8. Lower Band propagation falters before higher band propagation,
possibly due to the building of the D layer on SUNRISE daylight side. 

IT IS INTERESTING THERE IS DAYLIGHT PROPAGATION OVER SIGNFICANT DISTANCES,
INTO/FROM THE GREYLINE ON THE SUNRISE SIDE, BUT NO DAYLIGHT PROPAGATION
INTO/FROM THE GREYLINE ON THE SUNSET SIDE. 

This also suggests it might be possible to work HEARD well past Tucson's
SUNRISE.. on 30m and 40m. HEARD sunset is 5:40pm local, or 5:40am out time.
Thus it is UNLIKELY we would EVER hear HEARD TOMORROW AM, until 
after 5:40am, based on what we learned tonight. Greyline MUST be past their
SUNSET. 

Right now, HEARD is 1/2 hour into dark at our sunrise. So we are good to go,
after sunrise. Might take some data tomorrow am, for verification. 

MORE DATA NEEDS TO BE TAKEN, BEFORE MORE CONVINCING CONCLUSIONS CAN BE
DRAWN. 

There was a significant difference in the propagation this evening 4/5 vs
that of 4/1. Only the SPOTS appear significantly different in the solar
indices. It could be related to the recent aurora in Antarctica. 	 

  Date   SFI   Spots  K
  4/5    83    39     2
  4/1    82    11     3 

I WILL BE TAKING MORE OF THIS TYPE of DATA.. AM/PM --  4 DAYS LEFT!! 

73s, Bill W7EXG

-----Original Message-----
From: SADXA [mailto:sadxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 3:35 PM
To: Southern AZ DX Association E-Mail Reflector
Subject: Re: [SADXA] Optimum GreyLine-Termination Angle for VK0EK (Heard) /
AZ Propagation - GREYLINE DATA TAKING - Any Takers

Bill:

As of late with the VK0 hearing them on either 80 or 160 is the 
challenge let alone get a feel for the variation of strength of the 
signal. I of course have very little good directionality with my 
antennas although they do have some. I intend to listen tonight to see 
if I can hear them on either of those bands and if so will make a note 
of what time that happens. Mornings are better here because of a lot 
less noise than evenings. I have been listening in the mornings 
generally starting about 5:00 local time. So far not only have I not 
heard them, but no one else has either although they have been on as 
reported by some Russian stations that monitor them.

So lets see what we can hear.

I know  there are not many in the club that deal with the low bands like 
I do but even with 40 and up the Grayline can be significant to us to 
work that hard to work station. One just has to know its there and how 
to use it so it would make a great discussion at club meetings.

Thanks for picking up on the subject.

Jerry

On 4/5/2016 1:54 PM, W7EXG (Bill) wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> You're asking an interesting question, but my memory is fading! Hi Hi.
>
> While I have not documented the greyline signal strength vs time per se, I
> suspect it might depend upon the Frequency, and the Near-side or Far-Side
> type propagation.
>
> I think we all have an excellent opportunity NOW to observe signals vs
time,
> for the HEARD PM far-side Greyline .. and on 160m, 40m, 30m, 20m, and
maybe
> 17m, in the next few nights.
>
> OBJECTIVE: How does the far-side HEARD signal strength change relative to
> sunset/sunrise Local time,  as a function of frequency, time, LP/SP.
Perhaps
> bearing change might also be interesting, especially if much different
than
> the Greyline, and Geometrical Angle.
>
> For HEARD/TUCSON sunrise/sunset local data.
>
> UTC APRIL 6
> 	SUNRISE HEARD  6:39AM Local
> 	SUNSET  TUCSON 6:44pm Local
>
> Note: dT = [Tsunset(Tus) - Tsunrise(Hrd)] = 5 min. See the Greyline Map at
> 01:44Z for April 6th UTC. Its PERFECT!!
>
> THIS IS ALMOST A GREYLINE DATA TAKER'S DREAM, for FAR-SIDE Data. And the
> target signal is transmitting almost all the time on most the bands. Its
> like testing a far-side  Greyline multiband beacon signal.
>
> For UTC
> 4/7   dT = 5 Min
> 4/8   dT = 4 min
> 4/9   dT = 3 min
> 4/10  dT = 2 min
>
> For 40m - 17m, I can take signal data tonight, and a few other nights...as
a
> function of time, LP, SP and bearing. Thinking of  starting maybe an hour
or
> more prior to sunset, and 5 hours after sunset, taking data at 1/2 Hour
> intervals.  I have 3 ele on 40m and 30m, so I can note bearing on these
> bands as well.
>
> I do not have 80m or 160m capability.. so if someone else would like to
> document this HEARD signal data vs time on these bands,  that would be
> great.
>
> What an excellent opportunity for us to observe the far-side greyline
> signals vs time and frequency,  when the far-side and near-side local
> greyline UTC times are almost identical.
>
> We can report on this at the next SADXA meeting.
>
> Glad you asked Jerry!!
>
> 73s, Bill W7EXG
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SADXA [mailto:sadxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry
Wothe
> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 5:36 PM
> To: Southern AZ DX Association E-Mail Reflector
> Subject: Re: [SADXA] Optimum GreyLine-Termination Angle for VK0EK (Heard)
/
> AZ Propagation
>
> This for for you folks that have watched the grayline and listened to
> the DX stations. What has been your experience as to when the real peak
> in signal strength occurs? In my case I have listened to a lot of 160
> grayline and just about always about 10min before the actual SR is when
> I usually see the peak. Cant say the other bands because I have not done
> much there to make the observation.
>
> W6XI
>
> On 4/4/2016 5:06 PM, k7bhm at cox.net wrote:
>> Bill and all..
>>
>> An excellent analysis of "Gray-Line" and how it effects propagation
>> between Arizona and Heard.........Tucson and Phoenix Gray-line being only
>> a few minutes apart...
>>
>> 63 years ago while learning how to use a compass in Boy Scouts, we
>> were taught that in Arizona, Magnetic North was always 13 degrees
>> away (East) from True North. We had to make that adjustment when
>> locating different objects in the field.
>>
>> Who would'a thunk the concept was alive and well today with our
radios!!!!
>>
>> Bob - K7BHM
>>
>>
>> ---- "W7EXG (Bill)" <W7EXG at q.com> wrote:
>>> The described Greyline bearing vs true Bearing difference of 13 deg
would
>>> not seem to have much difference on a directional antenna's gain.
>>>
>>> I simulated 13 deg 20m gain loss for a 3 ele SteppIR to be about 0.7dB.
> The
>>> same analysis for my 20m DB42 (5 ele on 42 ft boom) yielded a 1.2dB
>>> difference.
>>>
>>> Although this does not seem like much, but when signals are at or near
> the
>>> noise level, a 1.2dB signal improvement is helpful.
>>>
>>> Frequency propagation considerations are uniquely different along the
>>> Greyline, and uniquely dependant upon the near-side or far-side targets.
>>>
>>> For near-side, both stations are experiencing the Light to Dark (Dark to
>>> Light) transition together, while for far-side, one station is
> progressing
>>> from dark to light, while the other station is experiencing light to
> dark,
>>> or visa versa. This last case, is the case for HEARD.
>>>
>>> There is no other propagation region on Earth, where over a distance of
>>> about 1200 miles, the Light side shows a strong D layer, and High MUF
> with
>>> F2 layer, while the Dark side shows weak, or no D layer, [with F Layer
> low
>>> band DX propagation] and low MUF. I find the MUF gradient interesting
> across
>>> the Greyline.
>>>
>>> For near-side propagation along the Greyline, both stations start low
>>> frequency and work toward high frequency, or visa versa, dependent upon
> dark
>>> to light, or light to dark transition respectively.
>>>
>>> For far-side propagation along the greyline, one station is
transitioning
>>> from low to high MUF, and the other is transitioning from high to low
> MUF.
>>> This is a complicated process to accurately predict/model, but may be
>>> possible.
>>>
>>> Somewhere in the middle of the near-side/far-side greyline, the
> propagation
>>> works..
>>>
>>> I was amazed on 4/2/16 0300Z to 0400Z UTC, VK0EK [11,000 miles away] was
>>> being heard/worked on 40m, 30m, 20m, and 17m almost at the same time.
> Don't
>>> hear this too often. No place line the Greyline Experience.
>>>
>>> Greyline propagation is unique, and in some cases it is not clear what
>>> frequency to utilize, especially for the near-side/far-side propagation.
>>>
>>> 73s, Bill W7EXG
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: SADXA [mailto:sadxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry
> Wothe
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2016 4:01 PM
>>> To: Southern AZ DX Association E-Mail Reflector
>>> Subject: Re: [SADXA] Optimum GreyLine-Termination Angle for VK0EK
(Heard)
> /
>>> AZ Propagation
>>>
>>> You have to consider what frequency you are working with also. The dark
>>> side is better for the low bands and the sunny side for the higher
>>> frequencies. Who is in the dark and who is in the light and when. If you
>>> are worrying about where to set your antenna, _+_ 10 degrees, very few
>>> antennas are that sharp that you can notice it. Plus depending on
>>> frequency the signal my not be best right on the great circle bearing.
>>> Lots of antenna rotating goes on right at SR/SS to find out just where
>>> is the signal coming from.
>>>
>>> W6XI
>>>
>>> On 4/3/2016 3:06 PM, W7EXG (Bill) wrote:
>>>> By now, most of us have recognized the two opportunities per day, for
>>>> propagation between AZ and VK0EK, due to the Greyline.
>>>>
>>>> QRZ bearing data shows 186 deg Short Path (SP) (6 deg Long Path (LP))
>>>>
>>>> The question becomes: Is this geometrical bearing, the correct bearing
>>> when
>>>> Greyline propagation is being considered? I submit the correct answer
> is..
>>>> Not Always.
>>>>
>>>> For April 4th, 0140Z UTC, the greyline passing through Tucson, also
> passes
>>>> slightly West of Heard Island. The Greyline Terminator line is along
the
> 7
>>>> deg / 187 deg line. It is almost the perfect storm, since the Greyline
>>>> propagation path is close to the required 186 deg SP bearing. As most
of
>>> us
>>>> know, the evening propagation for VK0EK has recently been exceptional.
>>>>
>>>> (HEARD considering staying put!)
>>>>
>>>> However, for April 4th, 1300Z UTC, the greyline passing thought Tucson,
>>>> passes significantly more West of Heard Island. In this case, the
> Greyline
>>>> Terminator line is along the 353 deg and 173 deg line.
>>>>
>>>> This suggests the morning propagation may be best at a SP bearing of
173
>>>> degrees, not 186 degrees (a 13 deg bearing difference)
>>>>
>>>> Because of the further west Greyline for HEARD, and an indirect
>>> propagation
>>>> path, this suggests the AM propagation between AZ and HEARD may
> currently
>>>> not be as good as in the PM.
>>>>
>>>> This analysis is based on the greyline prediction websites.. some of
>>> which,
>>>> may not yield identical results. The link below is easy to use, and
will
>>>> verify my analysis above. It agreed with several others greyline
>>> predictors
>>>> I tried.
>>>>
>>>> https://academo.org/demos/day-night-terminator/
>>>>
>>>> 73s, and good luck with HEARD!
>>>>
>>>> Bill W7EXG