[R-390] R-390 Digest, Vol 143, Issue 9
SHELLY199 at aol.com
SHELLY199 at aol.com
Fri Mar 18 10:35:45 EDT 2016
Hi list.
Many moons ago I had some strange things going on with some R390a pots.
Measuring the resistance at various rotational positions made no sense nor
did the end to end values. I took a 2.5k audio pot apart and found the
carbon restive element was severely worn away from friction with the wiper
contact. The wiper showed little signs of wear. My conclusion was the pots
are shot. There's no log, linear or audio taper at this point in time as the
element is shot from use. Also, measured the noise limiter pot and found
the same thing. The spec. resistance is .5 m ohms and found those pots
typically anywhere from 2 to 11 megs. Gary, at Fair Radio was going to sell
me a limiter pot and I asked him to check the resistance's of his stock. He
finally found one out about ten that I would buy. Most were above 5 megs.
Your mileage may vary.
Mt two cents worth. Your mileage may vary.
In a message dated 3/18/2016 1:27:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: RF GAIN pot ? (Jacques Fortin)
2. Re: LINE /AUDIO POTS (Jacques Fortin)
3. R-390 attacked by RF from old guy (Frank Hughes)
4. Re: RF GAIN pot ? (Craig)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 19:57:38 -0400
From: "Jacques Fortin" <jacques.f at videotron.ca>
To: "'Craig'" <hamfish at comcast.net>, <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] RF GAIN pot ?
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Craig, RF GAIN I'm speaking about now...
For your question: no, not really. A reverse log pot wired in reverse (as
you suggest) will have the minimum volume at 10 and the maximum at 0.
But at least the progression will be "normal" for a volume control.
Good for the other side ??
73 ! VE2JFE
-----Message d'origine-----
De?: Craig [mailto:hamfish at comcast.net]
Envoy??: 17 mars 2016 17:46
??: 'Jacques Fortin' <jacques.f at videotron.ca>; r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Objet?: RE: [R-390] RF GAIN pot ?
AND THE PLOT THICKENS
To Jacques & All,
The 14-PH-56 rings a bell, got one of those also! It appears to be
normal.......has CTS line & local pots 2.5K audio (log) taper. The Motorola
supplied AF, IF decks, etc., while trying to make the "Too Loud Amelco"
normal.
The parts list, Y2K R3, calls for a RV4ATSA252D pot which is a normal log
taper 2.5K 20% tolerance.
Question: Ok, if it is reverse taper......reverse the wires connecting to
the ends of the pot and zero would be less (no) audio & ten would be loud
audio?????
Craig,
-----Original Message-----
From: R-390 [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jacques
Fortin
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 12:51 PM
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Subject: [R-390] RF GAIN pot ?
Hi to all,
Is it possible that the RF GAIN pot (listed as a 5K) is a reverse log one ?
The one I have in my parts bin (came from a Moto 14-PH-56) measures 10k,
despite it is identified as a 5K on the cover: 318K147 5K CTS650 and when
the shaft is dead center, I got 8K between CCW contact and center, 2K
between CW contact and center.
Looks like a reverse log, right ?
73, VE2JFE
-----Message d'origine-----
De?: R-390 [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net] De la part de Jacques
Fortin Envoy??: 17 mars 2016 13:53 ??: fengjs at juno.com;
r-390 at mailman.qth.net Objet?: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
I'm sorry but.... not sure of that !
73, VE2JFE
-----Message d'origine-----
De?: R-390 [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net] De la part de
fengjs at juno.com Envoy??: 17 mars 2016 11:02 ??: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Objet?: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
It seems to me that a well-placed capacitor could give the pseudo-log taper
without upsetting the bias point.
---------- Original Message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 10:01:00 -0400
From: "Jacques Fortin" <jacques.f at videotron.ca>
To: "'Norman Ryan'" <nnryann at yahoo.com>, "'Steve Toth'"
<stoth47 at yahoo.com>, <jupete at internode.on.net>
Cc: <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi to all,
Despite the trick presented by Steve works practically to "imitate" a log
potentiometer from a linear one, it cannot be used on R-390/390A because
the
end to end value of both local and line potentiometers are a part of the
follower tube bias system.
So using a linear pot with the ~500 ohms resistor will change the bias of
the tube with the sliders positions, except when both potentiometers are at
zero, which is not very practical, listening wise...
Bottom line, log law potentiometers are needed there.
The only other "trick" that will work is to use a higher value LOG
potentiometer replacement with a fixed resistor in parallel to make the
2,5K
value end to end.
Ex: you find a 5K LOG pot so you put a 5k (4K99) resistor in parallel to
obtain 2.5K end-to-end and all will work OK.
BTW: who on this thread was complaining about potentiometers found in a
R-390A that measured 5K LOG but were stamped 2500 on the cover ???
I just found two of those "anomalies" in my R-390 parts bin....
73, VE2JFE
-----Message d'origine-----
De : R-390 [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net] De la part de Norman Ryan
via R-390 Envoy? : 17 mars 2016 03:44 ? : Steve Toth <stoth47 at yahoo.com>;
jupete at internode.on.net; r-390 at mailman.qth.net Objet : Re: [R-390] LINE
/AUDIO POTS
Great suggestion, Steve. So, with a 2.5k linear pot I just connect a 500
ohm
(20% of 2.5k) resistor as you describe -- or should the resistances of pot
and resistor be proportionally higher so they add up to 2.5k?
73Norman
From: Steve Toth via R-390 <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
To: "jupete at internode.on.net" <jupete at internode.on.net>;
"r-390 at mailman.qth.net" <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
If you need log pot response from a linear pot one method that works is
connecting a resistor that's 20% of the value of the linear pot between the
ground end solder lug and the center variable contact solder lug.
- Steve K7PZN"Always look for a positive solution then Improvise, Adapt,
and Overcome"
"Sometimes it is the people who no one imagines doing anything, who do the
things that no one can imagine".....
From: Pete Williams <jupete at internode.on.net>
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 8:53 PM
Subject: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
? G'day All.....
Gary Schneider from 'Playthings Of the Past... have just told me that
2.5k pots only available in linear taper.
Cheers
Pete
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------------------------------
End of R-390 Digest, Vol 143, Issue 6
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 20:08:22 -0400
From: "Jacques Fortin" <jacques.f at videotron.ca>
To: <fengjs at juno.com>, <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I do not believe it is a good solution to fix the DC operating point
problem
by creating another one in the AC domain...
Calculate what the stage gain will become when the pot will be set at
10....
or both pots, as we are there... if you do not see the problem, too bad !
Personally, I believe that the best is to leave the design as it is.
73, VE2JFE
-----Message d'origine-----
De?: R-390 [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net] De la part de
fengjs at juno.com
Envoy??: 17 mars 2016 18:17
??: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Objet?: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
I thought it would be a simple exercise for the reader. Here is how I
would
do it: connect a 100uF/16V in series with the 510? and put this between
the
wiper and ground. You can connect C604/C607 either directly to the wiper
(for a little LF boost) or to the junction between the R and the C (for a
little more LF rolloff). If you use an electrolytic, the polarity is left
as an exercise for the student. This capacitor value gives a LF corner
about 10X lower than the one from C607/R620.
---------- Original Message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 13:53:14 -0400
From: "Jacques Fortin" <jacques.f at videotron.ca>
To: <fengjs at juno.com>, <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I'm sorry but.... not sure of that !
73, VE2JFE
-----Message d'origine-----
De?: R-390 [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net] De la part de
fengjs at juno.com
Envoy??: 17 mars 2016 11:02
??: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Objet?: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
It seems to me that a well-placed capacitor could give the pseudo-log taper
without upsetting the bias point.
---------- Original Message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 10:01:00 -0400
From: "Jacques Fortin" <jacques.f at videotron.ca>
To: "'Norman Ryan'" <nnryann at yahoo.com>, "'Steve Toth'"
<stoth47 at yahoo.com>, <jupete at internode.on.net>
Cc: <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi to all,
Despite the trick presented by Steve works practically to "imitate" a log
potentiometer from a linear one, it cannot be used on R-390/390A because
the
end to end value of both local and line potentiometers are a part of the
follower tube bias system.
So using a linear pot with the ~500 ohms resistor will change the bias of
the tube with the sliders positions, except when both potentiometers are at
zero, which is not very practical, listening wise...
Bottom line, log law potentiometers are needed there.
The only other "trick" that will work is to use a higher value LOG
potentiometer replacement with a fixed resistor in parallel to make the
2,5K
value end to end.
Ex: you find a 5K LOG pot so you put a 5k (4K99) resistor in parallel to
obtain 2.5K end-to-end and all will work OK.
BTW: who on this thread was complaining about potentiometers found in a
R-390A that measured 5K LOG but were stamped 2500 on the cover ???
I just found two of those "anomalies" in my R-390 parts bin....
73, VE2JFE
-----Message d'origine-----
De : R-390 [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net] De la part de Norman Ryan
via R-390 Envoy? : 17 mars 2016 03:44 ? : Steve Toth <stoth47 at yahoo.com>;
jupete at internode.on.net; r-390 at mailman.qth.net Objet : Re: [R-390] LINE
/AUDIO POTS
Great suggestion, Steve. So, with a 2.5k linear pot I just connect a 500
ohm
(20% of 2.5k) resistor as you describe -- or should the resistances of pot
and resistor be proportionally higher so they add up to 2.5k?
73Norman
From: Steve Toth via R-390 <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
To: "jupete at internode.on.net" <jupete at internode.on.net>;
"r-390 at mailman.qth.net" <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
If you need log pot response from a linear pot one method that works is
connecting a resistor that's 20% of the value of the linear pot between the
ground end solder lug and the center variable contact solder lug.
- Steve K7PZN"Always look for a positive solution then Improvise, Adapt,
and Overcome"
"Sometimes it is the people who no one imagines doing anything, who do the
things that no one can imagine".....
From: Pete Williams <jupete at internode.on.net>
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 8:53 PM
Subject: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
? G'day All.....
Gary Schneider from 'Playthings Of the Past... have just told me that
2.5k pots only available in linear taper.
Cheers
Pete
______________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 20:26:05 -0400
From: Frank Hughes <fsh396ss at gmail.com>
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Subject: [R-390] R-390 attacked by RF from old guy
Message-ID:
<CAKLfjCkURg_s2Y9iWaqeph8ghET0C+2ZxJY1+2oftnVq3cOxvQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
OK, let's just hypothesize that someone that will remain nameless, but IS A
SENILE IDIOT, no, calm, very calm here...
managed to transmit into the receive interface of his prized R-390.
This particular R-390 is configured for break-in, so the signal input was
brief, for the duration of the R-390 antenna and audio relays grounding the
respective circuits.
The unit seems to still receive 3885, but the band has been in poor
condition here, owing to thunderstorms, etc, so I still don't know if it is
receiving as it should.
I'm thinking that I could just configure the 8640B and input the signal
into both R-390's (production and spare) and the spare R-390A, and see if
there are any significant differences in receive level and audio quality???
Or do I have drain bammage?
73
Frank
KJ4OLL
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 22:26:43 -0700
From: "Craig" <hamfish at comcast.net>
To: "'Jacques Fortin'" <jacques.f at videotron.ca>,
<r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] RF GAIN pot ?
Message-ID: <001801d180d6$c2cb38f0$4861aad0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jacques,
Yes, I have audio pot on the brain! My mistake. So digging into the junk
box..........found a CTS 5K pot from an R-390/A. It still has the jumper
between lugs 2 & 3. Must be a RF gain pot. Removing the jumper and
measuring
shows this pot is a 5K ohm audio (log) reverse taper, I think?
Putting us on the same page. With the shaft facing me and turning the shaft
fully counterclockwise lug #3 per the schematic is the counterclockwise lug
(least resistance from wiper). End to end the pot measures about 4.63K
ohms.
Counterclockwise lug to the wiper with the shaft half rotation, is about
3.48K ohms.
I Googled the part number ((71450) type SW1376)) for the RF gain pot and
got
nowhere as to its specs.
Hope this helps and makes sense.
Regards,
Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: Jacques Fortin [mailto:jacques.f at videotron.ca]
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 4:58 PM
To: 'Craig'; r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [R-390] RF GAIN pot ?
Craig, RF GAIN I'm speaking about now...
For your question: no, not really. A reverse log pot wired in reverse (as
you suggest) will have the minimum volume at 10 and the maximum at 0.
But at least the progression will be "normal" for a volume control.
Good for the other side ??
73 ! VE2JFE
-----Message d'origine-----
De?: Craig [mailto:hamfish at comcast.net] Envoy??: 17 mars 2016 17:46 ??:
'Jacques Fortin' <jacques.f at videotron.ca>; r-390 at mailman.qth.net Objet?:
RE:
[R-390] RF GAIN pot ?
AND THE PLOT THICKENS
To Jacques & All,
The 14-PH-56 rings a bell, got one of those also! It appears to be
normal.......has CTS line & local pots 2.5K audio (log) taper. The Motorola
supplied AF, IF decks, etc., while trying to make the "Too Loud Amelco"
normal.
The parts list, Y2K R3, calls for a RV4ATSA252D pot which is a normal log
taper 2.5K 20% tolerance.
Question: Ok, if it is reverse taper......reverse the wires connecting to
the ends of the pot and zero would be less (no) audio & ten would be loud
audio?????
Craig,
-----Original Message-----
From: R-390 [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jacques
Fortin
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 12:51 PM
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Subject: [R-390] RF GAIN pot ?
Hi to all,
Is it possible that the RF GAIN pot (listed as a 5K) is a reverse log one ?
The one I have in my parts bin (came from a Moto 14-PH-56) measures 10k,
despite it is identified as a 5K on the cover: 318K147 5K CTS650 and when
the shaft is dead center, I got 8K between CCW contact and center, 2K
between CW contact and center.
Looks like a reverse log, right ?
73, VE2JFE
-----Message d'origine-----
De?: R-390 [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net] De la part de Jacques
Fortin Envoy??: 17 mars 2016 13:53 ??: fengjs at juno.com;
r-390 at mailman.qth.net Objet?: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
I'm sorry but.... not sure of that !
73, VE2JFE
-----Message d'origine-----
De?: R-390 [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net] De la part de
fengjs at juno.com Envoy??: 17 mars 2016 11:02 ??: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Objet?: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
It seems to me that a well-placed capacitor could give the pseudo-log taper
without upsetting the bias point.
---------- Original Message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 10:01:00 -0400
From: "Jacques Fortin" <jacques.f at videotron.ca>
To: "'Norman Ryan'" <nnryann at yahoo.com>, "'Steve Toth'"
<stoth47 at yahoo.com>, <jupete at internode.on.net>
Cc: <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi to all,
Despite the trick presented by Steve works practically to "imitate" a log
potentiometer from a linear one, it cannot be used on R-390/390A because
the
end to end value of both local and line potentiometers are a part of the
follower tube bias system.
So using a linear pot with the ~500 ohms resistor will change the bias of
the tube with the sliders positions, except when both potentiometers are at
zero, which is not very practical, listening wise...
Bottom line, log law potentiometers are needed there.
The only other "trick" that will work is to use a higher value LOG
potentiometer replacement with a fixed resistor in parallel to make the
2,5K
value end to end.
Ex: you find a 5K LOG pot so you put a 5k (4K99) resistor in parallel to
obtain 2.5K end-to-end and all will work OK.
BTW: who on this thread was complaining about potentiometers found in a
R-390A that measured 5K LOG but were stamped 2500 on the cover ???
I just found two of those "anomalies" in my R-390 parts bin....
73, VE2JFE
-----Message d'origine-----
De : R-390 [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net] De la part de Norman Ryan
via R-390 Envoy? : 17 mars 2016 03:44 ? : Steve Toth <stoth47 at yahoo.com>;
jupete at internode.on.net; r-390 at mailman.qth.net Objet : Re: [R-390] LINE
/AUDIO POTS
Great suggestion, Steve. So, with a 2.5k linear pot I just connect a 500
ohm
(20% of 2.5k) resistor as you describe -- or should the resistances of pot
and resistor be proportionally higher so they add up to 2.5k?
73Norman
From: Steve Toth via R-390 <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
To: "jupete at internode.on.net" <jupete at internode.on.net>;
"r-390 at mailman.qth.net" <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
If you need log pot response from a linear pot one method that works is
connecting a resistor that's 20% of the value of the linear pot between the
ground end solder lug and the center variable contact solder lug.
- Steve K7PZN"Always look for a positive solution then Improvise, Adapt,
and Overcome"
"Sometimes it is the people who no one imagines doing anything, who do the
things that no one can imagine".....
From: Pete Williams <jupete at internode.on.net>
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 8:53 PM
Subject: [R-390] LINE /AUDIO POTS
? G'day All.....
Gary Schneider from 'Playthings Of the Past... have just told me that
2.5k pots only available in linear taper.
Cheers
Pete
______________________________________________________________
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End of R-390 Digest, Vol 143, Issue 9
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