[R-390] R: R: I: R: Strange variation of sensitivity AGC resistance toward the chassis

Thu May 7 19:12:12 EDT 2015

Hi Franco,  That should give you some results, but I think you will see something much easier if you use a 10k res instead of a 1k res.  Since you're looking for a 5% change, that will be hard to detect using a 1k res representing .25% of the AGC resistance.  You will probably have better luck applying your procedure to the IF and RF decks separately.  You can isolate them a little by unplugging and/or removing the 3-4 link.  Good luck.
Regards, Larry
      From: Pierfrancesco Mengacci <pf.mengacci at outlook.it>
 To: 'Larry H' <dinlarh at att.net>; r-390 at mailman.qth.net 
 Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2015 3:29 AM
 Subject: R: R: [R-390] I: R: Strange variation of sensitivity AGC resistance toward the chassis

#yiv2057941638 #yiv2057941638 -- _filtered #yiv2057941638 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2057941638 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2057941638 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv2057941638 #yiv2057941638 p.yiv2057941638MsoNormal, #yiv2057941638 li.yiv2057941638MsoNormal, #yiv2057941638 div.yiv2057941638MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv2057941638 a:link, #yiv2057941638 span.yiv2057941638MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2057941638 a:visited, #yiv2057941638 span.yiv2057941638MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2057941638 p.yiv2057941638msonormal, #yiv2057941638 li.yiv2057941638msonormal, #yiv2057941638 div.yiv2057941638msonormal {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv2057941638 p.yiv2057941638msochpdefault, #yiv2057941638 li.yiv2057941638msochpdefault, #yiv2057941638 div.yiv2057941638msochpdefault {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv2057941638 span.yiv2057941638msohyperlink {}#yiv2057941638 span.yiv2057941638msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv2057941638 span.yiv2057941638stilemessaggiodipostaelettronica17 {}#yiv2057941638 p.yiv2057941638msonormal1, #yiv2057941638 li.yiv2057941638msonormal1, #yiv2057941638 div.yiv2057941638msonormal1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv2057941638 span.yiv2057941638msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2057941638 span.yiv2057941638msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2057941638 span.yiv2057941638stilemessaggiodipostaelettronica171 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv2057941638 p.yiv2057941638msochpdefault1, #yiv2057941638 li.yiv2057941638msochpdefault1, #yiv2057941638 div.yiv2057941638msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv2057941638 span.yiv2057941638StileMessaggioDiPostaElettronica27 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv2057941638 .yiv2057941638MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv2057941638 {margin:70.85pt 2.0cm 2.0cm 2.0cm;}#yiv2057941638 div.yiv2057941638WordSection1 {}#yiv2057941638 Hi, LarryYes, you’r right. If an AGC component is to go bad , that is the 2 microF paper capacitor C551.  Indeed, I still have some residual doubt about AGC: the overall resistance of rear AGC test point toward ground  varies from 380 K when the rig is “cold” to about 360 K when is warmed up for a couple of hours. Considering that the RF deck has only ceramic capacitors (and only 5kpf in value), there may be some minor loss in the IF deck, which AGC resistance is in parallel with the one of RF grid circuits.  What I think to do, also, is to apply (carefully) an external  -50 DC Voltage at TB102(3-4), with function switch in AGC and receiver unpowered (and test at various delay settings). I will try to measure the leakage current (may be warming with an hair dryer the suspect components). To measure the leakage current I will add, in series to the external voltage source, a 1 K resistor, and I will measure the voltage drop upon it with a 10 M-ohm electronic multimeter; if leakage currents are irrelevant, I should read only 0.13 Volt on this additional resistor  (50/380000 x 1000). If this value varies with forced warming of components, it will mean the decay of some capacitor or , in second instance, of the related resistors  I will let you know, when I come back from my Mediterranean tour.  Ciao, Franco  

Da: Larry H [mailto:dinlarh at att.net] 
Inviato: mercoledì 6 maggio 2015 22:16
A: Pierfrancesco Mengacci; r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Oggetto: Re: R: [R-390] I: R: Strange variation of sensitivity AGC resistance toward the chassis  Hi Franco,  I forgot that with the IF deck out of unit, the AGC switch won't work of course.  So the 30 meg would be across the problematic C551 (these go bad fairly regularly).  Of course, ideally you would read infinity across these caps, and the suggested readings may or may not mean that they are on their way to being bad.  If you read above 100 meg, you should be safe.  Regards, Larry  From: Pierfrancesco Mengacci <pf.mengacci at outlook.it>
To: 'Larry H' <dinlarh at att.net>; r-390 at mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2015 2:16 AM
Subject: R: [R-390] I: R: Strange variation of sensitivity AGC resistance toward the chassis  Hi Larry, I have disconnected J208 (the multiple connector on RF deck). I read almost exactly 1,5 Mohm when I measure resistance of E208 toward ground (while on AGC and medium delay).The second check you suggest is more relevant and interesting: I will do it when I come back from a ten days vacation, which I badly need after a ten months breathless consulting work..I have planned to visit the “sassi” of Matera, plus a couple of days in Rome, then a few days of trekking between sea and mountain in the little Giglio Island, in front of Tuscany. I’ll let you know the results of the second test, Thanks again, Franco    Da: Larry H [mailto:dinlarh at att.net] 
Inviato: mercoledì 6 maggio 2015 02:47
A: Pierfrancesco Mengacci; r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Oggetto: Re: [R-390] I: R: Strange variation of sensitivity AGC resistance toward the chassis Hi Franco,  Glad to hear that your mystery sensitivity variation is gone. There are 2 more checks you can make to ensure that your agc is working correctly - 1. Disconnect the power connector on the RF deck and measure from E8 to ground. It should be 1.5 meg.  2. Disconnect and remove IF chassis and disconnect 1 end of R546 and R544.  You should read 50 meg to ground on C547 in the 'fast' position and at least 30 meg in 'medium'. Regards, Larry From: Pierfrancesco Mengacci <pf.mengacci at outlook.it>
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2015 1:31 AM
Subject: [R-390] I: R: Strange variation of sensitivity AGC resistance toward the chassis
Hi, Roy
Your patience and completeness are commendable; the information is
perfect!!!

A) Measurable resistance toward ground (chassis), when on AGC and receiver
disconnected from power net: 
Your datum, V201 pin 1 = 940 K; my datum = 980 K            Your datum,
E208 = 490 K; my datum = 505 K                  Your datum, E209 = 1.45 M;
my datum = 1.45 M                      Your datum, E211 = 900 K; my datum =
835 K                  Your datum, TB102 (3-4) = 390 K; my datum = 380 K

B) I tried with a 9.0 V battery connected to AGC rear test point( minus to
ground; function on AGC, receiver unpowered) At all control grids I read a
voltage variable from -7,5 V of V 201 to near
-9 V on IF tubes); this corresponds with good approximation to the diagram,
when I take into consideration the various resistive partitions associated
with the multimeter internal impedance (10 Mohm)

CONCLUSION
The AGC circuit of my R390/A-URR is behaving almost correctly, the anomaly
is to be found in some other zone..

ERROR on the TM11-856A Manual.
I have controlled the diagram page 183 , figure 104: IT DOES NOT CORRESPOND
TO THE GENERAL CIRCUIT of the following pages (V201 RF section). In
particular, E208 is not connected to the control grid of V201 but to the
union of E213 and R233 (470Kohm). In addition,  R201 is not 22K but 270 K.
This gives reason of "theoretical" discrepancies

SOUL
I think the "anomaly" o "trouble" or "vice" of my radio  (i.e.the
unpredictable  and slow sensitivity reduction/variation  via antenna only)
HAS A SOUL:
When it has understood that I was tracking it with the help of the friends
of the R390 forum, it has disappeared or concealed  itself, may be it has
committed suicide!!!
The fact is that in the last few days I do not have experienced the problem
(i.e. I get at least 40 Db on calibrator position, on all bands, and a
sensitivity in the range (approximate) of 1-2 microvolts on all bands).

What I did in the meanwhile was to remove an reinstall for the 10th time the
first RF coil of band 16-32. I suspect there was a random contact between
some pin of the coil (those on chassis side) and conductors nearby

Thanks to everybody!!!!!

Franco Mengacci (I live in Alessandria, near Milan/Genova and Torino).

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Roy Morgan [mailto:k1lky68 at gmail.com] 
Inviato: martedì 5 maggio 2015 01:14
A: Pierfrancesco Mengacci
Oggetto: Re: [R-390] R: Strange variation of sensitivity AGC resistance
toward the chassis

On May 4, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Pierfrancesco Mengacci <pf.mengacci at outlook.it>
wrote: 
> 
> 
> Referring to the control grid of V506-A (pin 2 of AGC time constant 
> tube) , its resistance toward ground , which I call "Res4", is the sum 
> of "Res3" +
> R547(220K) = 254 + 220 = 474 Kohm

Franco,

I did measure some restances on my R-390A today.

(The one you mention above I did not measure.)

Here are the numbers I got:

TB-102 pins 3 and 4  390 K (AGC connection on rear of radio)

J512 pin 4 (AGC output from Audio deck): 537 K  (I had this connector as
J502, but that may have been a mistake)
J512 pin 13 (“AGC Switch”)  on the very high range of my meter I got 8 meg
and rising, On a lower range (20 megohms) I got greater than 20 meg.

V 201 pin 1 (RF amp grid):  940 K
E208  490 K (there seems to be some error about the diagrams at this point)
E209  1.45 meg
E210  1.45 meg
E211  900 K

Right now I don’t have handy the measurements that are expected from the
Pearls of Wisdom document, but I think these numbers are about right.

I hope these help you sort out what’s happening.

Roy

Roy Morgan
k1lky68 at gmail.com
K1LKY Since 1958

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