[R-390] R-390 Digest, Vol 65, Issue 35

Sat Sep 26 10:08:45 EDT 2009

I have been searching for an answer to "where to get volts & amps when the grid fails", 
lots of good info in this thread. 

Whether it is EMP or microbes or bureaucratic benign neglect of the National grid, 
I am sure to need a private power source to at least run the R-390A. 

(I don't have a transmitter yet, but have been watching the web for a 32S-3/3A
to go w/ the R-390A.)

Our defunct 70's vintage 15kw Propane fueled generator is too old to repair.

To replace it, I have found some 1950's vintage "railroad surplus" Detroit Diesel, 
1200 RPM two-cycle 20KW Delco units that are simple technology and probably don't 
have any silicon devices. 
(an old belt driven DC Generator charges the battery, like in the 50's cars) 

But I also realize that obtaining Diesel fuel is not going to happen. 
Hurricanes here and in the Gulf a few years ago shut down the petrochemical infrastructure
for a long time, a more severe event would take years to recover from.

I have enough acreage to put up some PV arrays & a battery room w/ inverters. 
(I realize EMP would zap this technology, but hurricanes are a higher probability event here)

But there is currently a long back-order for PV cells, and the emerging technologies
look to significantly improve cell efficiency, so I guess I'll wait a while more and see
what develops.

The "On the Beach" movie is one in the home DVD collection, here are a couple of good books
from a similar perspective:

http://www.amazon.com/Alas-Babylon-Perennial-Classics-Frank/dp/0060931396
http://www.amazon.com/Earth-Abides-George-R-Stewart/dp/0449213013

Frank KJ4OLL

-----Original Message-----
From: r-390-request at mailman.qth.net
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Sent: Fri, Sep 25, 2009 8:33 pm
Subject: R-390 Digest, Vol 65, Issue 35

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: EMP (Barry)
   2. Re: EMP (rbethman)
   3. R390 and the Concord (Kal White)
   4. Re: EMP (fred b)
   5. Re: EMP (mikea)
   6. Re: On The Beach; Endgame (mikea)
   7. Re: EMP (mikea)
   8. Re: EMP (Cecil Acuff)
   9. Re: EMP (Bill Hawkins)
  10. Re: EMP (Dave Maples)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:58:18 -0400
From: Barry <n4buq at knology.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP
To: <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <12205.1253905098 at knology.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

> It's the "megavolts/ micron ( thats > gigavolts/cm) at frequencies from
> 10's of MHz to THz "  That folks don't get.  Nor the fact that this is a
> COMPLETE Sphere enclosure.
> 
> The basics we know won't help much at all.
> 
> Bob - N0DGN

So, it's similar to touching your tongue to the terminals on a fresh 9V battery 
only much worse?

Barry - N4BUQ

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:09:37 -0400
From: rbethman <rbethman at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <4ABD1571.6070603 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Barry - More like touching your tongue to one of the Ray-o-vac 325V 
batteries!

Talk about a ZING!

Bob - N0DGN

Barry wrote:
>> It's the "megavolts/ micron ( thats > gigavolts/cm) at frequencies from
>> 10's of MHz to THz "  That folks don't get.  Nor the fact that this is a
>> COMPLETE Sphere enclosure.
>>
>> The basics we know won't help much at all.
>>
>> Bob - N0DGN
>>     
>
> So, it's similar to touching your tongue to the terminals on a fresh 9V 
battery only much worse?
>
> Barry - N4BUQ
>   

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:25:42 -0300
From: "Kal White" <kalwhite at nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: [R-390] R390 and the Concord
To: <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <B618EA3F34CC496C930D2F2D80F4D380 at uniquea3595a31>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

Hi everyone:

The day the Concord made its last flight across the North Atlantic some one 
recorded both the VFH and HF audio which I saved . However I have since lost 
the files and I was wondering if anyone had  these files?

That was somewhat off the R 390 subject, but this is. I was also lucky to 
get one of these find receivers in the original box. about 20 years ago. 
There was a ad in the local paper and I went to see what the guy had and he 
had a room full of electronics from a uncle who had passed away. I was able 
to pick up the R390 for $125.00  and had to leave the rest behind. I still 
have the receiver and its working like a charm and the scars from the 
beating my wife gave me.

Tassie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "rbethman" <rbethman at comcast.net>
To: <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP

> Barry - More like touching your tongue to one of the Ray-o-vac 325V
> batteries!
>
> Talk about a ZING!
>
> Bob - N0DGN
>
> Barry wrote:
>>> It's the "megavolts/ micron ( thats > gigavolts/cm) at frequencies from
>>> 10's of MHz to THz "  That folks don't get.  Nor the fact that this is a
>>> COMPLETE Sphere enclosure.
>>>
>>> The basics we know won't help much at all.
>>>
>>> Bob - N0DGN
>>>
>>
>> So, it's similar to touching your tongue to the terminals on a fresh 9V 
>> battery only much worse?
>>
>> Barry - N4BUQ
>>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: fred b <fb030663 at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net, Steve Toth <stoth47 at yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <352554.23742.qm at web56004.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

We did some of this stuff for FEMA EOC locations, it involved lots of grounding, 
MOV's, stuff you can buy from Polyphaser, pages of engineering drawing, and two 
manuals about six inches thick.

Don't remember everything, but the idea is to channel the EMP energy away from 
the equipment, phones, generators, antennas to ground.

One engineer explained to us dumb tech that EMP energy is like a high power wide 
bandwidth lightning strike. 

Fred

--- On Fri, 9/25/09, Steve Toth <stoth47 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Steve Toth <stoth47 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [R-390] EMP
> To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
> Date: Friday, September 25, 2009, 12:41 PM
> So, theorectically, what would be
> involved in "hardening" a hamshack?? (understanding that the
> power grid, etc., would be taken out)
> ?
> Not being an engineer and having no background in this
> area, my guess would be some sort of shielding on all sides
> of the room, roof and floor (what would be considered
> adequate?); thorough grounding of the shielding and
> associated equipment?(would the lightning strike damage
> prevention techniques discussed a little while ago be
> applicable?); and filtering of all wiring coming into and
> out of the room for excessive voltage pulses???? Or would
> even those techniques have their own issues?? Just
> curious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- Steve 
> Woodinville, WA
> Frodo failed..........Obama has the ring.
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> 
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> 

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:02:07 -0500
From: mikea <mikea at mikea.ath.cx>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <20090925230207.GA27801 at mikea.ath.cx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 12:28:03PM -0400, rbethman wrote:
> Hello Sam,
> 
> I knew about the trestle and he efforts devoted there.  I didn't know if 
> it was still being "kept" info though.  I couldn't believe it when I 
> first saw it.  A HUGE wood deck sort of off the peak of a very large 
> hill.  There sat a B-52.
> 
> I knew the research finally succeeded.  Another "LAB" had been working 
> over on this side of the country.  It was hilarious, as the Military 
> quarters were toward the front of the complex, the entire testing area 
> was a fair bit behind.  Gave those folks a "place" to do this without 
> having to use another or create another facility.  They were testing the 
> M1A1 Abrams.  Then they used our operations training facility to set up 
> and test EMP "filters" to take the pulse off the power input from the grid.

The Kirtland facility used Marx generators with caps and insulators of
enormous size. I saw pics of a capacitor about the size of my big desk,
with arc tracks from one end to the other. I imagine the QRM would have
shown up on any R-390 in New Mexico -- whether or not it was switched on.

-- 
Mike Andrews, W5EGO
mikea at mikea.ath.cx
Tired old sysadmin 

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:10:27 -0500
From: mikea <mikea at mikea.ath.cx>
Subject: Re: [R-390] On The Beach; Endgame
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <20090925231027.GB27801 at mikea.ath.cx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 10:22:01PM -0500, William J. Neill wrote:

[snip]

> I wrote two research papers during class and both were part of a DOE  
> project the class took on and the papers are not gonna be discussed.   
> However, I was able to find 40 years worth of US targeting plans for  
> "the enemy" and was aghast at the casualness with which, by 1983, the  
> so-called "SIOP" (Special Instructions of the President) called for  
> the outright death of 60,000,000 million people in Eastern Europe,  
> Eurasia, Russia, and China as well as the consequent destruction of  
> all economic activity with the stated goal of permanently rendering  
> such lands uninhabitable.  Of course, the US planners accepted as  
> many as 200 nuclear devices impacting upon CONUS and felt that civil  
> defense preparedness would assure survival of the bulk of the  
> population.

When I was read in, it was "Single Integrated Operational Plan". Amazing
how names change. 

McNamara: "General, you don't have a war plan; what you have is a kind
of horrible spasm!"

-- 
Mike Andrews, W5EGO
mikea at mikea.ath.cx
Tired old sysadmin 

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:38:08 -0500
From: mikea <mikea at mikea.ath.cx>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <20090925233807.GC27801 at mikea.ath.cx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 09:41:12AM -0700, Steve Toth wrote:
> So, theorectically, what would be involved in "hardening" a hamshack?? 
(understanding that the power grid, etc., would be taken out)
> 
> Not being an engineer and having no background in this area, my guess
> would be some sort of shielding on all sides of the room, roof and
> floor (what would be considered adequate?); thorough grounding of the
> shielding and associated equipment?(would the lightning strike damage
> prevention techniques discussed a little while ago be applicable?);
> and filtering of all wiring coming into and out of the room for
> excessive voltage pulses???? Or would even those techniques have their
> own issues?? Just curious.

You might get through it with fully-shielded underground vault, 
containing:

A complete set of spare electronics -- as in a complete set of spare
transceivers/receivers/transmitters.

A complete set of spare cables, connectors, etc., as well, as the
voltages induced by all those Compton-effect e- will be big enough to
punch through insulation and do other nasties.

Filtering just isn't going to do any good against voltage spikes with
those magnitudes and such fast risetimes. 

No, I'm not kidding. 

-- 
Mike Andrews, W5EGO
mikea at mikea.ath.cx
Tired old sysadmin 

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 19:12:58 -0500
From: "Cecil Acuff" <chacuff at cableone.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP
To: "mikea" <mikea at mikea.ath.cx>,   <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <168DAA81E10F474DB929255491361CA3 at acuffmain>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

Restore some old but reliable tube transceivers for use after an EMP event. 
Sounds crazy but it's easy to put in a stock of spare tubes and other 
spares.

After such a life changing event as a nuclear attack even basic 
communications will be a welcome commodity.

Powering the stuff is the other problem.  Many portable generators use 
solidstate controllers for engine speed regulation and excitation.  Not sure 
those will survive.  Something more vintage will be necessary there as 
well...and that's if the insulation in the windings survive...

Interesting problem...one I hope we or our kids and kids, kids never have to 
face...

Cecil...
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "mikea" <mikea at mikea.ath.cx>
To: <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP

> On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 09:41:12AM -0700, Steve Toth wrote:
>> So, theorectically, what would be involved in "hardening" a hamshack?? 
>> (understanding that the power grid, etc., would be taken out)
>>
>> Not being an engineer and having no background in this area, my guess
>> would be some sort of shielding on all sides of the room, roof and
>> floor (what would be considered adequate?); thorough grounding of the
>> shielding and associated equipment (would the lightning strike damage
>> prevention techniques discussed a little while ago be applicable?);
>> and filtering of all wiring coming into and out of the room for
>> excessive voltage pulses??? Or would even those techniques have their
>> own issues? Just curious.
>
> You might get through it with fully-shielded underground vault,
> containing:
>
> A complete set of spare electronics -- as in a complete set of spare
> transceivers/receivers/transmitters.
>
> A complete set of spare cables, connectors, etc., as well, as the
> voltages induced by all those Compton-effect e- will be big enough to
> punch through insulation and do other nasties.
>
> Filtering just isn't going to do any good against voltage spikes with
> those magnitudes and such fast risetimes.
>
> No, I'm not kidding.
>
> -- 
> Mike Andrews, W5EGO
> mikea at mikea.ath.cx
> Tired old sysadmin
>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 19:30:24 -0500
From: "Bill Hawkins" <bill at iaxs.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP
To: <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <6507BCAA1421428285AE49E41351DAFD at cyrus>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

Well, the radios may be the least of your worries.

I've worked 50 years in the field of industrial process control. We've
gone from EMP-immune brass and steel powered by air, to 4-20 mA DC
signals to and from field control devices, to digital communication.

Almost all of the manufacturing facilities of any size are now fully
dependent on computers to make the equipment work - from oil refineries
to widget production lines. If an EMP gets all the computers, including
the spares, we will be a long time without what we've been used to,
including processed food.

We might have to learn how to live together in small groups, again.

Bill Hawkins

-----Original Message-----
From: mikea
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 6:38 PM
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 09:41:12AM -0700, Steve Toth wrote:
> So, theorectically, what would be involved in "hardening" a hamshack??
(understanding that the power grid, etc., would be taken out)
> 
> Not being an engineer and having no background in this area, my guess
> would be some sort of shielding on all sides of the room, roof and
> floor (what would be considered adequate?); thorough grounding of the
> shielding and associated equipment (would the lightning strike damage
> prevention techniques discussed a little while ago be applicable?);
> and filtering of all wiring coming into and out of the room for
> excessive voltage pulses???  Or would even those techniques have their
> own issues?  Just curious.