[R-390] R-390 Digest, Vol 65, Issue 29 EMP Effects

Thu Sep 24 21:30:53 EDT 2009

Just a thought...

Wonder if a Faraday cage erected over communication equipment would work as a shield?  Maybe some critical gear could benefit.

Bob
A HAM wannabee

--- On Thu, 9/24/09, r-390-request at mailman.qth.net <r-390-request at mailman.qth.net> wrote:

From: r-390-request at mailman.qth.net <r-390-request at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: R-390 Digest, Vol 65, Issue 29
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 6:10 PM

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: EMP effects: (rbethman)
   2. Re: EMP effects: (TVComlGuy at aol.com)
   3. Re: EMP effects: (mlmccauley)
   4. Re: EMP effects: (Sandy Geiger)
   5. Re: EMP Pulse: (mikea)
   6. Re: EMP effects: (Bill Hawkins)
   7. Re: EMP effects: (rbethman)
   8. Re: EMP effects: (wb5uom at hughes.net)
   9. Re: EMP Pulse: (Barry)
  10. Re: EMP effects: (Robert Nickels)
  11. Re: EMP effects: (DJED1 at aol.com)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:24:56 -0400
From: rbethman <rbethman at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP effects:
To: R-390 at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <4ABBE3A8.7090304 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Yep!  It was a submarine crew that came ashore and found the radio 
beying keyed by something attached to a window shade.

The crew went in search of survivors of a nuclear war.  They heard the 
signal and took bearings to determine where the signal was coming from.

Boy, does THAT bring back memories of old!

Bob - N0DGN

Cecil Acuff wrote:
> I remember a movie I saw as a kid...wish I could remember the name of 
> it...would like to see it again.
>
> After an apocalyptic event it seemed most of the human race was 
> eradicated but one that survived was hearing a weird CW signal on a 
> radio of some sorts.  He traveled what seemed like across the country 
> trying to find this signal because he thought it might mean other 
> survivors existed.  Went through many interesting events along the way 
> but when he finally got to the source of the signal it was a string 
> and a brick or something heavy tied to a window shade blowing in the 
> breeze that was keying the transmitter...
>
> I must have only been 6 or 8 at the time and can't remember anything 
> more detailed than that...
>
> Must have made quite an impression at the time....
>
> Cecil
> K5DL

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:27:21 EDT
From: TVComlGuy at aol.com
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP effects:
To: chacuff at cableone.net, r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <bd0.5e8c02ef.37ed3e39 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

The movie you are thinking of was "On the Beach" with Gregory Peck playing  
the role of a U.S. submarine captain after a nuclear war killed off 
everyone in  the northern hemisphere.  He and his ship were in Australia and they 
kept  picking up a CW signal coming from the San Francisco  area.  They  went 
up there to find it and found out that it was coming from a power station  
and it was a Coke bottle stuck in the pull down ring of a window shade and  
hitting a telegraph key when the breeze hit it just right.  A good movie  
worth renting.

Ron, KB0WAR

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:33:49 -0500
From: mlmccauley <mlmccauley at tx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP effects:
To: R-390 at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <4ABBE5BD.3020005 at tx.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Cecil Acuff wrote:
> I remember a movie I saw as a kid...wish I could remember the name of
> it...would like to see it again.
>
> After an apocalyptic event it seemed most of the human race was 
eradicated
> but one that survived was hearing a weird CW signal on a radio of some
> sorts.  He traveled what seemed like across the country trying to 
find this
> signal because he thought it might mean other survivors existed.  Went
> through many interesting events along the way but when he finally got 
to the
> source of the signal it was a string and a brick or something heavy 
tied to
> a window shade blowing in the breeze that was keying the transmitter...
>
> I must have only been 6 or 8 at the time and can't remember anything 
more
> detailed than that...
>
> Must have made quite an impression at the time....
>

The movie was "On The Beach".

A US sub operating out of Australia goes looking for survivors/low 
radiation areas after a full scale nuke exchange between unnamed 
parties, assumed to be us and the Soviets. The CW signal was coming from 
a station at a refinery at Torrance, CA (we must assume Torrance, in 
that that's where the refineries are in LA). The "CW op" was, just as 
you said, a window shade cord that had become snagged on a straight key 
in the company shore-to-ship radio room. It was discovered by guys from 
the sub in anti-radiation suits who went looking for the "survivor".

Great movie from 1959. Rent it sometime if you get a chance.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053137/

73,

Mike, WB5MYY
Dallas, TX
Motorola 390A, as yet un-restored

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:41:23 -0400
From: Sandy Geiger <chg111 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP effects:
To: <tvcomlguy at aol.com>, <chacuff at cableone.net>,
    <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <COL104-W54E55C30AE0F3607417EA92DA0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"

There was a novel about 20-25 yrs ago, "Warday" that explored what would happen 5 yrs after a "limited" nuclear exchange between us & the Rooskies...EMP knocked out some of the power grid, but it REALLY got most of the solid-state devices, which pretty much "screwed the pooch". Planes wouldn't fly because of all the embedded electronic control devices, neither would most newer cars run.... Very good book, IMHO, by Whitley Streiber & James Kunetka. They obviously did their homework.-Sandy

C.H.(Sandy)Geiger III

> From: TVComlGuy at aol.com
> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:27:21 -0400
> To: chacuff at cableone.net; r-390 at mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP effects:
> 
> The movie you are thinking of was "On the Beach" with Gregory Peck playing  
> the role of a U.S. submarine captain after a nuclear war killed off 
> everyone in  the northern hemisphere.  He and his ship were in Australia and they 
> kept  picking up a CW signal coming from the San Francisco  area.  They  went 
> up there to find it and found out that it was coming from a power station  
> and it was a Coke bottle stuck in the pull down ring of a window shade and  
> hitting a telegraph key when the breeze hit it just right.  A good movie  
> worth renting.
>  
>  
> Ron, KB0WAR
> ______________________________________________________________
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> 
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:46:48 -0500
From: mikea <mikea at mikea.ath.cx>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP Pulse:
To: Frank Donnelly <goober at centurytel.net>
Cc: R-390 at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <20090924214648.GA89419 at mikea.ath.cx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 02:40:38PM -0500, Frank Donnelly wrote:
> Thanks for the info.  That is what I kind of figured. and YES I do have 
> a standby generator.
> It would not take much of a Puls to fry  solid state rigs.
> I could probably only communicate with others that had standby power.
> I wonder if any of our amateur emergency services have considered that 
> possibility.
> A good reason to have some older tube type gear around.

What type of ignition does your generator have? If it's solid-state, it,
too, is toast. If it's old-style points and distributor, you've got a
chance. If it uses electronic fuel injection, _that_ is toast, too. If
it uses a carburetor or mechanical fuel injection, you've got a chance. 

For as long as the fuel supply holds out, that is. The refineries use
computers to control things, and *that*s all toast after an EMP event.
And, of course, someone has to get more fuel to where you can get it.
That probably involves fuel trucks. With electronic ignition and
electronic fuel injection. Crude comes to the refineries from where?
How?

Gotta look at the whole supply-dependency chain. 

Power <- generator <- fuel <- trucks <- refinery <- crude supply

Each "<-" link is a vulnerability that has to be considered. 

-- 
Mike Andrews, W5EGO
mikea at mikea.ath.cx
Tired old sysadmin 

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:47:05 -0500
From: "Bill Hawkins" <bill at iaxs.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP effects:
To: <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <31A96CD851FE4ADF90983354B203770D at cyrus>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"

Group,

EMP isn't just for nukes, anymore. Read a novel by Steven Coonts,
"America" where 750 pound charges on Tomahawk cruise missiles take
out power and sand state stuff for 3 miles. Includes cell phones
and car computers.

Explosive crushes a coil carrying current. As the coil diameter
decreases, the magnetic field is magnified. Scales down to smaller
devices, too. Buy plans on the Internet! Buy pricey equipment, but
not the machined explosives.

Asked a Lt. Commander in the Navy about it. "Oh yeah, the Aussies
published a paper on it 10 years ago." Haven't found the paper.

Regards,
Bill Hawkins

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:56:31 -0400
From: rbethman <rbethman at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP effects:
To: r-390 at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <4ABBEB0F.1030308 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Doesn't even take that particular warhead!

During the piddling contest in Bosnia, we used a simple dumb bomb that 
dispersed graphite fibers that shorted out the entire electrical grid.

As to fuel truck and ignition systems, the largest majority of diesel 
engines in that size bracket and up STILL use mechanical injectors.

Its the cars that have electronic fuel injection and computers to run them.

Just means walking!

Bob - N0DGN

Bill Hawkins wrote:
> Group,
>
> EMP isn't just for nukes, anymore. Read a novel by Steven Coonts,
> "America" where 750 pound charges on Tomahawk cruise missiles take
> out power and sand state stuff for 3 miles. Includes cell phones
> and car computers.
>
> Explosive crushes a coil carrying current. As the coil diameter
> decreases, the magnetic field is magnified. Scales down to smaller
> devices, too. Buy plans on the Internet! Buy pricey equipment, but
> not the machined explosives.
>
> Asked a Lt. Commander in the Navy about it. "Oh yeah, the Aussies
> published a paper on it 10 years ago." Haven't found the paper.
>
> Regards,
> Bill Hawkins
>   

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:13:14 -0500
From: <wb5uom at hughes.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP effects:
To: "mlmccauley" <mlmccauley at tx.rr.com>,    <R-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <022501ca3d74$ff218d10$0a01a8c0 at Boss1>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"

Ah ha ... 1959 I was only 5 - that probably explains why I did not see it!

Sounds good though

David/ WB5UOM
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "mlmccauley" <mlmccauley at tx.rr.com>
To: <R-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP effects:

> Cecil Acuff wrote:
>  > I remember a movie I saw as a kid...wish I could remember the name of
>  > it...would like to see it again.
>  >
>  > After an apocalyptic event it seemed most of the human race was
> eradicated
>  > but one that survived was hearing a weird CW signal on a radio of some
>  > sorts.  He traveled what seemed like across the country trying to
> find this
>  > signal because he thought it might mean other survivors existed.  Went
>  > through many interesting events along the way but when he finally got
> to the
>  > source of the signal it was a string and a brick or something heavy
> tied to
>  > a window shade blowing in the breeze that was keying the transmitter...
>  >
>  > I must have only been 6 or 8 at the time and can't remember anything
> more
>  > detailed than that...
>  >
>  > Must have made quite an impression at the time....
>  >
>
> The movie was "On The Beach".
>
> A US sub operating out of Australia goes looking for survivors/low
> radiation areas after a full scale nuke exchange between unnamed
> parties, assumed to be us and the Soviets. The CW signal was coming from
> a station at a refinery at Torrance, CA (we must assume Torrance, in
> that that's where the refineries are in LA). The "CW op" was, just as
> you said, a window shade cord that had become snagged on a straight key
> in the company shore-to-ship radio room. It was discovered by guys from
> the sub in anti-radiation suits who went looking for the "survivor".
>
> Great movie from 1959. Rent it sometime if you get a chance.
>
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053137/
>
> 73,
>
> Mike, WB5MYY
> Dallas, TX
> Motorola 390A, as yet un-restored
> ______________________________________________________________
> R-390 mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/r-390
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:R-390 at mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:20:36 -0500
From: "Barry" <n4buq at knology.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP Pulse:
To: <R-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <002601ca3d76$01715400$6501a8c0 at ingrnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

> What type of ignition does your generator have? If it's solid-state, it,
> too, is toast. If it's old-style points and distributor, you've got a
> chance. If it uses electronic fuel injection, _that_ is toast, too. If
> it uses a carburetor or mechanical fuel injection, you've got a chance.
>
> For as long as the fuel supply holds out, that is. The refineries use
> computers to control things, and *that*s all toast after an EMP event.
> And, of course, someone has to get more fuel to where you can get it.
> That probably involves fuel trucks. With electronic ignition and
> electronic fuel injection. Crude comes to the refineries from where?
> How?
>
> Gotta look at the whole supply-dependency chain.
>
> Power <- generator <- fuel <- trucks <- refinery <- crude supply
>
> Each "<-" link is a vulnerability that has to be considered.
>
> -- 
> Mike Andrews, W5EGO

Hmmm.  How many R390As have silicone in place of the 26Z5Ws?  How many have 
replaced the selenium rectifier on the back panel with a little 
silicon-diode bridge?  Isn't there a little silicon (germanium?) diode 
somewhere on the back panel as part of the original equipment?  How many 
have replaced the 3TF7 with a solid-state regulator?

Just something else to think about...

Barry - N4BUQ 

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:36:52 -0500
From: Robert Nickels <ranickel at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP effects:
Cc: R-390 at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <4ABC10A4.9080902 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Realizing this is somewhat off-topic, but I picked up a novel at a 
recent booksale that's based on the effects of EMP as well as a 
"limited" nuclear war.   It's called "Warday" - 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warday - and was published in 1984.

I mention it because it paints what seems like a plausible picture of 
how the disruption of modern electronics and communications systems from 
EMP could have consequences as severe as those of the bomb itself.   
It's an interesting read and certainly provides a a view into an 
alternative future.

73, Bob W9RAN

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:10:06 EDT
From: DJED1 at aol.com
Subject: Re: [R-390] EMP effects:
To: W9RAN at oneradio.net
Cc: R-390 at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <c63.50853f41.37ed726e at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Take a look at "One Second After" - a sci-fi novel recently published  
which shows how devastating an EMP attack could be.  I'm not sure to what  
extent the assumptions are correct, but a high altitude EMP explosion would  
wreak havoc with modern distribution of electricity, food, etc.  The novel  
winds up saying that in a period of a year after about 50% of the population  
dies, mostly from starvation.  So keep that old 1960 Volkswagen in the  
garage, along with the generator and R-390A.
Ed 

------------------------------

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End of R-390 Digest, Vol 65, Issue 29
*************************************