[R-390] Manassas BPL and I Vote!
JamesMiller
jmiller1706 at cfl.rr.com
Sun Jul 11 09:40:40 EDT 2004
There is a BPL conferenc in Orlando this month. Interesting insight into
the mindset of BPL marketing:
http://www.iqpc.com/cgi-bin/templates/document.html?topic=233&event=4929&document=41137
The overview theme: "It Doesn't Take A Genius To Know That Broadband Over
Power Line Is Becoming Big Business, And Big Business Means Big Bucks. So
The Real Question Is How Can You Ensure BPL Makes Money For Your
Organization? And What Else Can It Do For You?"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Camp" <ham at cq.nu>
To: "JamesMiller" <jmiller1706 at cfl.rr.com>; "R-390 HF Receiver List"
<r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [R-390] Manassas BPL and I Vote!
> Hi
>
> As far as I can tell the whole strategy in the DSL / Cable competition
> is to not compete. Somehow they split up the map and you get one
> service in area A and another service in area B. Obviously there must
> be an area C (probably rural past the end of the cable) that neither
> one of them want to service. It's an odd way to compete but that seems
> to be what they are doing.
>
> The radio companies are the ones that I would *think* would be more
> active on this. My only guess is that most of their money comes from
> government contracts these days. The part of the government that
> controls who gets which order seems to have spoken out pretty loudly on
> the topic of BPL. The ham radio end of the business seems to have been
> a loss leader for the Japanese radio companies for quite some time. The
> SWL business is not exactly a hotbed of new designs these days. That
> would suggest that it is even less of a profit maker for them than ham
> radio.
>
> A high power amp is a cute way to go on the transmit end of things but
> it does not help much on receive. If the BPL crud is 20 db above the
> noise then you would need about 10 KW to get back to an even footing.
> Since BPL is spread spectrum a narrow band signal will not give them as
> much trouble as you might think, More or less: they are only running a
> few milli watts per hertz but they do it over a lot of hertz.
>
> Noise cancelation is an interesting approach. It's got to help to some
> extent but the signal is a lot like the good old woodpecker over the
> horizon radar. It's not easy to take care of.
>
> One of the major tag lines that the BPL guys use runs something like
> "all the people who are against us still use vacuum tubes". The fact
> that they feel this is an effective line suggests that we may not have
> been very good at explaining what we do to our friends and neighbors. A
> little PR for our "strange hobby" may be in order. The local TV station
> seems to put all kinds of unusual stuff on the air from time to time.
> I'm not sure that a R-390 would be out of bounds compared to the
> sauerkraut wrestling competition that was just on the news here ...
>
> One other approach is to get in touch with the people who realize what
> this is going to do to them. The guys at the head of the agencies may
> be so political that they can double think themselves into anything. At
> some point below them there *must* be people who actually have to make
> the systems run. They can't make them run by wishing it was true. They
> must have a story to tell. They need a way to tell it .... Since they
> are radio guys they may share a hobby with us. It's not just FEMA, the
> FAA spends a lot of time on HF talking to planes over the oceans. They
> do it from a few towns down the road here. If I can't hear a weak
> signal then they can't either.
>
> There is quite a group of people who *should* be bothered by BPL. It's
> not just an issue for one group and not for the rest of the HF users.
> What seems to be missing is a realization of just what this is going to
> do to all of us.
>
> One way of looking at this is that it's to late to do anything. I don't
> think this is the case. There are no "real" BPL systems out there yet
> only a couple of pilot projects. The whole thing will most likely go
> through several rounds of technical changes before it gets deployed.
> It's crazy to think you can stop this, but you probably can get them to
> design it for less impact than it has had in the pilots. The way to do
> that is to demonstrate that a lot of people complain when they put a
> system in at the power levels they ran on the pilot systems.
>
> Obviously I'm still looking for my bottle of Valium ....
>
> Take Care!
>
> Bob Camp
> KB8TQ
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 11, 2004, at 8:24 AM, JamesMiller wrote:
>
> > Some more ideas for the BPL issue:
> >
> > The cable and DSL companies surely have a vested interest in competing
> > against BPL. What is their strategy? How do they plan to compete
> > against
> > BPL? Help them compete.
> >
> > The HF radio companies (Rockwell-Collins, Harris, Icom, others) must
> > have a
> > evsted interest. Their market is about to be depleted by BPL. What is
> > their strategy to stop it? Help them
> >
> > Licensed hams with high power amplifiers can make themselves heard, so
> > to
> > speak, in areas where BPL is operational. If BPL comes to my area I
> > will
> > become more active in contests than ever before, full legal limit,
> > 24/7,
> > with a high gain beam aimed right at the power line or, if I'm lucky,
> > right
> > at a BPL "box" on the power pole. Interference can go both ways,
> > right? Oh
> > gee officer, I didn't know a transmitter could interfere with a power
> > line.
> > Show me the law.
> >
> > Turn it into an opportunity. They sell noise cancellation devices to
> > put in
> > the antenna line right? MFJ sells some simple line noise cancellation
> > boxes
> > that use phase cancellation to null out line noise. Could a more
> > sophisticated device be devised to nullify BPL noise before it reaches
> > the
> > receiver front end?
> >
> > Learn more about the BPL threat to our hobby. http://www.arrl.org/
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Grossbauer" <wa9msd at ggnet.net>
> > To: "'R-390 HF Receiver List'" <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 11:18 PM
> > Subject: RE: [R-390] Manassas BPL and I Vote!
> >
> >
> >> It's a good start to go to any public hearings that are held in your
> >> area
> >> but this is coming from the fcc. Their policy is to encourage
> >> development
> >> of this kind of broadband access. It is being sold by saying that it
> >> will
> >> open up under served rural areas, which I doubt will happen. I think
> > things
> >> are past the point of no return but I plan on taking the action that
> >> I can
> >> as follows:
> >>
> >> 1. I have set up a meeting with a US congressman from Chicago that I
> >> know
> >> and will do the same with my local congressman here where I live
> > (Indiana).
> >>
> >> We can all contact our congressman's office and set up a meeting (be
> >> persistent, groups are better). Our local democratic congressman is
> >> NOT
> >> supportive of Bush as it relates to Power companies but is not
> >> familiar
> > with
> >> BPL. I plan on opening his eyes.
> >>
> >> 2. I sit on several committees with our local town council, I have
> >> and
> > will
> >> make my position know and bring out the issues.
> >>
> >> 3. This is really coming from the Bush administration through the
> >> fcc.
> >> Those of you/us that are republicans need to contact our local
> >> republican
> >> headquarters and voice our concerns and rights. The local politicians
> >> are
> >> more sensitive to our voices than those in distant places.
> >>
> >> 4. VOTE, if this issue is important enough to you "through the bums
> >> out!"
> >> If you are in a swing state call your local public radio station (NPR
> >> has
> >> broadcasted several reports on this) and raise this issue. If any of
> >> you
> >> are broadcast engineers, talk (shout) to your news people.
> >>
> >> If anyone has any other ideas please share.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> Joe WA9MSD
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> >> [mailto:r-390-bounces at mailman.qth.net]
> >> On Behalf Of Bob Camp
> >> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 9:38 PM
> >> To: rbethman at comcast.net; R-390 HF Receiver List
> >> Subject: Re: [R-390] Manassas BPL
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> But soon we will *all* get to live with it.
> >>
> >> Guys - if they hold hearings in your area on this stuff go and
> >> complain
> >> about it. It's going to mess you up....
> >>
> >> Take Care!
> >>
> >> Bob Camp
> >> KB8TQ
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jul 10, 2004, at 10:34 PM, Rbethman wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yeah! BUT I'm the one living with it!
> >>>
> >>> Bob - N0DGN
> >>>
> >>> Bob Camp wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi
> >>>>
> >>>> An awful long time ago I had some exposure to "carrier current
> >>>> broadcasting". This is a wonderful idea where you transmit AM
> >>>> directly into a building's power system in order to provide a
> >>>> listening experience for all the occupants.
> >>>>
> >>>> The first thing you find out is that power lines were not designed
> >>>> as
> >>>> RF transmission lines, even at AM radio frequencies. The impedance
> >>>> between the conductors is well below an ohm at RF. You need to feed
> >>>> a
> >>>> lot more into the lines than you might think to get anything useful
> >>>> to happen.
> >>>>
> >>>> The next amazing thing was that after you got all that power in
> >>>> there
> >>>> it would pop up all over the place. We would get hot spots as much
> >>>> as
> >>>> a couple of blocks away. This happened at power levels that just
> >>>> barely covered the building that was our target. Multiple feeds to
> >>>> the building made things even more exciting. Nulls and peaks all
> >>>> over
> >>>> the place.
> >>>>
> >>>> If it's that tough to control at 500 KC then it's going to be a
> >>>> whole
> >>>> lot harder to control at 30 MHz. The primary and secondary power
> >>>> distribution systems were never intended to be part of an RF system
> >>>> in the first place. Anybody who has ever had a RFI complaint into
> >>>> them can tell you just how good they generally are at RF.
> >>>>
> >>>> The cable company runs a system that is designed from the ground up
> >>>> to be RF tight. Finding their carriers floating around in free air
> >>>> is
> >>>> awfully easy. It doesn't even take a R390, you can do it on a rice
> >>>> box. Even with that kind of system they have an awful time tracking
> >>>> down problems as well. The power company won't be any better.
> >>>>
> >>>> The one hope is that the combination of complaints and competition
> >>>> will make this a system that nobody ever makes any money off of. If
> >>>> so it will die out. Remember the woodpecker back in the 1980's - it
> >>>> died eventually. If this thing interferes with what you want to do
> >>>> on
> >>>> HF COMPLAIN ABOUT IT TO THE FCC. The guy that comes around every
> >>>> couple of years looking to get re-elected to the House of
> >>>> Representatives might also be a good one to talk to. This is
> >>>> especially true if elections in your area tend to be closely
> >>>> contested.
> >>>>
> >>>> Boy .. this has me going even harder than the ballast tubes ...
> >>>>
> >>>> Take Care!
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob Camp
> >>>> KB8TQ
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jul 10, 2004, at 9:57 PM, JamesMiller wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> As I understand BPL (which isnt much) it comes right to the wall
> >>>>> outlet.
> >>>>> That's the sell feature, your internet comes in on the same plug as
> >>>>> power.
> >>>>> So it may be in your house. I wonder if a heavy duty RF filter
> >>>>> across the power main coming into the house wouild help?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yje ARRL is trying to fight it and needs support. www.arrl.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Rbethman" <rbethman at comcast.net>
> >>>>> To: <R-390 at mailman.qth.net>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 8:54 PM
> >>>>> Subject: [R-390] Manassas BPL
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Well, I've used the R-390A and <groan> a TS-930SAT to narrow it
> >>>>>> down.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The bursts show s-5 on the Kenwood at 1.616Kc. At 29.6Mc it
> >>>>>> doesn't move the needle so much as it IS a constant audio pop.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The results are the same on the R-390A. I just used the Kenwood
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> provide S Units for description.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As I have said before - I live in the part of the city that the
> >>>>>> power is UNDERGROUND.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've put up to 5 rf toroidal chokes on both radios power cords
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>>> NO effect at all. It is definitely radiated!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Now where is riley Hollingsworth's email address. I know I've
> >>>>>> seen
> >>>>>
> >>>>> it......
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bob - N0DGN
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> < Bob Bethman - N0DGN
> >>>>>> +-------------------------------
> >>>>>> +----------------------------------+
> >>>>>> | N0DGN AMRadio Manassas, VA | REAL Tube Radio and AM
> >>>>>> |
> >>>>>> +-------------------------------
> >>>>>> +----------------------------------+
> >>>>>> | Manassas Radio - Home of Homemade Kielbasa & Pirogi
> >>>>>> |
> >>>>>> +-------------------------------
> >>>>>> +----------------------------------+
> >>>>>> | Bob Bethman \\\|/// " The absence of a
> >>>>>> danger |
> >>>>>> | rbethman(at)comcast.net \\ ~ ~ // signal does *NOT* mean
> >>>>>> |
> >>>>>> | (/ @ @ /) that everything is OK
> >>>>>> " |
> >>>>>> +-------------------------oOOo-(_)-
> >>>>>> oOOo----------------------------
> >>>>>> ++
> >>>>>> | <http://home.comcast.net/~rbethman>
> >>>>>> |
> >>>>>> | 1 BC-610I w/BC-614I,1 T-213/GRC-26 w/BC614I 1 '51 Collins R-390A
> >>>>>> | |
> >>>>>> | 1 '67 EAC R-390A, Heathkit DX-60, Apache, Mohawk, SX-101, HT-32A
> >>>>>> | |
> >>>>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> -+
> >>>>>> | Amateur Astronomer - Celestron Nexstar 8
> >>>>>> |
> >>>>>> | 12" f5 Dob coming soon! Being built
> >>>>>> |
> >>>>>> | Meade ETX-60 (Got it back!)
> >>>>>> |
> >>>>>> | 38 Deg 46.8' N - 77 Deg 28.5' W
> >>>>>> |
> >>>>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> -+
> >>>>>> | Opinions expressed are that of my own and do not necessarily
> >>>>>> |
> >>>>>> | coincide with or represent those of ANYONE else
> >>>>>> |
> >>>>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> -+
> >>>>>> ALL E-mail received and sent scanned by AVG & Norton Anti-Virus>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> < Bob Bethman - N0DGN
> >>> +-------------------------------+----------------------------------+
> >>> | N0DGN AMRadio Manassas, VA | REAL Tube Radio and AM |
> >>> +-------------------------------+----------------------------------+
> >>> | Manassas Radio - Home of Homemade Kielbasa & Pirogi |
> >>> +-------------------------------+----------------------------------+
> >>> | Bob Bethman \\\|/// " The absence of a danger |
> >>> | rbethman(at)comcast.net \\ ~ ~ // signal does *NOT* mean |
> >>> | (/ @ @ /) that everything is OK " |
> >>> +-------------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo----------------------------+
> >>> | <http://home.comcast.net/~rbethman> |
> >>> | 1 BC-610I w/BC-614I,1 T-213/GRC-26 w/BC614I 1 '51 Collins R-390A |
> >>> | 1 '67 EAC R-390A, Heathkit DX-60, Apache, Mohawk, SX-101, HT-32A |
> >>> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> >>> | Amateur Astronomer - Celestron Nexstar 8 |
> >>> | 12" f5 Dob coming soon! Being built |
> >>> | Meade ETX-60 (Got it back!) |
> >>> | 38 Deg 46.8' N - 77 Deg 28.5' W |
> >>> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> >>> | Opinions expressed are that of my own and do not necessarily |
> >>> | coincide with or represent those of ANYONE else |
> >>> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> >>> ALL E-mail received and sent scanned by AVG & Norton Anti-Virus>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
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