From k2av.guy at gmail.com  Mon Jul  1 15:33:21 2019
From: k2av.guy at gmail.com (Guy Olinger K2AV)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 15:33:21 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] PVRC NC Resked: July 4 => July 11, Manchester's
In-Reply-To: <CANckpc1NDG82KB_GrBxkkMUEmON2-cR9N8oXGvtA4xwazzfFgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANckpc2b=-xzRM8v9KiVuQ5WacWAf_u=h5+Lz8hgVSEMwEvzdg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc2KgDF9e7Usp7t1kfodu2brJsEzTTOvbwAOTYoAE3L+4w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc1p8Z=wpKJ3rAaghCCiT3jwCx-odQrTaQXnKLajrZsGYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc0D=riNhedcTCsB5cTA=0Uwr3n+He+ypoOQbLo+v8=94A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc0u1V0NyZkdtyvTrm_SL2BQjytNRBU=Knd7fn2iq8xE2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc0gNSLNNtPec9Pd-5KJT-gz-5Q9ve+FFiOZwqtBM6fk6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc1NDG82KB_GrBxkkMUEmON2-cR9N8oXGvtA4xwazzfFgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANckpc11c-HQi623TCh6qZ5+h=Zca+Gx0phiajjEMFw5k+_pcw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello PVRC and friends,

Notice Reschedule: July 4 => July 11

Due to regular first Thursday monthly meeting falling on July Fourth,
the PVRC NC East chapter has been rescheduled to second Thursday July
11, 2019 in the group room at Manchester's Bar and Grille, 9101
Leesville Rd, Raleigh, NC 27613.

73, and see you there,

Guy K2AV
Chair, PVRC-NCE

From bill at axelrods.org  Mon Jul  1 21:32:24 2019
From: bill at axelrods.org (Bill Axelrod)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 21:32:24 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] K3WA in RAC
Message-ID: <CAJ_MLyVjo-8ycgU5xJfPtt9cv-9=HFmS8-wSZDtn=CKXpRVQkw@mail.gmail.com>

Soapbox:  About 3 hours - very part time.  RAC always a fun contest.

K3WA .  SOAB, Low Power, CW only

Band CW QSOs     CW Mults
7             22                  4
14           60                 10
Total        82                 14

Claimed score:  8,792

Rig:  Flex 6600
Ant:  Flagpole

73...   Bill K3WA

From dongladwell1 at gmail.com  Mon Jul  1 23:05:57 2019
From: dongladwell1 at gmail.com (Don Gladwell)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 23:05:57 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] FW: RAC Day W4BBT SOAB/Ph HP
In-Reply-To: <20190702002816.1.09FB5E26D1BC62B6@b4h.net>
References: <20190702002816.1.09FB5E26D1BC62B6@b4h.net>
Message-ID: <00b301d53083$12474f90$36d5eeb0$@gmail.com>

Great time in Canada today.

Don

-----Original Message-----
From: webform at b4h.net [mailto:webform at b4h.net] 
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 8:28 PM
To: 3830 at contesting.com; dongladwell1 at gmail.com
Subject: RAC Day W4BBT SOAB/Ph HP

                    RAC Canada Day Contest - 2019

Call: W4BBT
Operator(s): W4BBT
Station: W4BBT

Class: SOAB/Ph HP
QTH: 
Operating Time (hrs): 

Summary:
 Band  CW Qs  Ph Qs  CW Mults  Ph Mults
----------------------------------------
  160:                              
   80:           3                 1
   40:          37                 6
   20:         183                10
   15:                              
   10:                              
    6:                              
    2:                              
----------------------------------------
Total:   0     223       0        17  Total Score = 25,942

Club: Potomac Valley Radio Club

Comments:




Posted using 3830 Score Submittal Forms at: http://www.3830scores.com/


From bill at axelrods.org  Sun Jul  7 10:17:35 2019
From: bill at axelrods.org (Bill Axelrod)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 10:17:35 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] K3WA in DL DX RTTY contest
Message-ID: <CAJ_MLyW3tU_qZbbJ7v4P_0T_WiHd8C0-sUQQi0FoJtTh96zVAA@mail.gmail.com>

Soapbox:  Played for about 3 hours. Low Power, 20 meters only.  Ran low
power with Flex 6600 and a vertical OCF Dipole antenna (Flagpole).
Conditions were generally poor.  Nice opening to EU in the evening but not
much activity,  At least I worked a few DLs.  Nice to play in a RTTY
contest again - now ready for the RTTY NAQP.

14MHz.  46 QSOs,  23 Mults, Score 9,545.  Log submitted.

73...   Bill K3WA

From k2av.guy at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 11:45:04 2019
From: k2av.guy at gmail.com (Guy Olinger K2AV)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:45:04 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] PVRC NC East Thursday, July 11, Manchester's
In-Reply-To: <CANckpc0gNSLNNtPec9Pd-5KJT-gz-5Q9ve+FFiOZwqtBM6fk6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANckpc2b=-xzRM8v9KiVuQ5WacWAf_u=h5+Lz8hgVSEMwEvzdg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc2KgDF9e7Usp7t1kfodu2brJsEzTTOvbwAOTYoAE3L+4w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc1p8Z=wpKJ3rAaghCCiT3jwCx-odQrTaQXnKLajrZsGYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc0D=riNhedcTCsB5cTA=0Uwr3n+He+ypoOQbLo+v8=94A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc0u1V0NyZkdtyvTrm_SL2BQjytNRBU=Knd7fn2iq8xE2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc0gNSLNNtPec9Pd-5KJT-gz-5Q9ve+FFiOZwqtBM6fk6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANckpc1PmWFMampYwhQkJ3QJD3s-ycOC+ES4Q4MkKDkcNFd2oQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello PVRC and friends,

The rescheduled first Thursday (July 4) monthly meeting of the PVRC NC East
chapter will be held Thursday July 11, 2019 in the group room at
Manchester's Bar and Grille, 9101 Leesville Rd, Raleigh, NC 27613.

All are invited. Newcomers and visitors distinctly welcome. You will be
treated like you've been our friend for twenty years.

*5:15 PM*: Arrivals begin and continue throughout the meeting. Late
arrivals please sign in on the Chairman's log when you first come in.
Ordering meals will begin when someone is more interested in meals than
blather. Wait staff is used to our style.

We do it this way because some need to arrive early enough to beat one or
more of the several regular weekday interstate jam-ups. Others can't leave
early and always get caught in the jam. So latecomers are **entirely
welcome**. We've all been there and **entirely understand**. Anyone who
comes in during the round-the-table will be picked up at the end if the
round has gone past where they are sitting. Wait staff is used to our late
arrivals. We allow a 30 second embarrassing pause for anyone who gets
caught with a mouth full of Manchester Deluxe when it's their turn. After
30 seconds you have to talk with your mouth full.

*6:00 PM*:  Serious, organized QRN (as opposed to blathering, meandering
QRN) usually begins with the round-the-table. Dining is any time after
5:15, shortly after you tackle one of the wait staff. Official meeting is
officially over after official round-the-table, any official program, and
the chairman runs out of official blather. The entire meeting is only over
when all the post-official-meeting stand-up meetings break up and the last
few go home. That could be anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour later.

*Points of Privilege: If Ted is there, latest on the WinLink flap and
FCC/ARRL proceedings. *

*Around the Table, *General Purpose Wails and Tales. Fish stories from
various contests and other data. Technical deportment. Scandals and
bewildering burnings of electronics. And so forth.

The totally official part of the meeting ends with the 'round the table,
but unofficially ends with the last small discussion or the establishment
closes, whichever occurs first. In fair weather, discussions may continue
into the night in the parking lot.

73, and see you there,

Guy K2AV
Chair, PVRC-NCE

[Note: high tipping ensures that the owner will suffer a severe beating by
the wait staff if he ever tries to schedule the room out from under us. If
you can't or prefer not to high tip, don't worry, nobody is looking.]

From bill at axelrods.org  Tue Jul  9 15:28:21 2019
From: bill at axelrods.org (Bill Axelrod)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:28:21 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] Yaesu Rotor Controller
Message-ID: <CAJ_MLyUkr90xO3+VjtNQmWABnuocoC4C2wruV84rwe2TWpevzw@mail.gmail.com>

Getting close to finishing a basement room that will be my ham shack and
storage.  Today I started unpacking boxes of ham stuff to get ready for the
new room.

I came across a Yeasu GX-1000 rotor controller.  It is 6 years old and
never used.  Sad to say I am out of the tower/rotator business so I have no
need for it.  If anyone needs one, please contact me.

73...   Bill K3WA

From botmline2 at aol.com  Tue Jul  9 16:45:56 2019
From: botmline2 at aol.com (botmline2 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:45:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [PVRCNC] RFI with AFCI circuit breakers
References: <792892011.481042.1562705156133.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <792892011.481042.1562705156133@mail.yahoo.com>

Anyone have any experience mitigating RFI issues with AFCI type circuit breakers? My Surf City house has a bunch of them and they are very susceptible to RFI. On some bands, even 50 watts out will trip them. These are made by Eaton and they are known troublemakers according to W1RFI at ARRL. Apparently they used to have some contacts at the factory that were ham-friendly and they would send more RFI resistant replacements. I have had no luck in reaching anyone yet. despite multiple attempts.

I'm working on adding more feedline isolation, but it appears that even clean radiation from antennas is enough to trip, as it is looking for anything superimposed on an AC sine wave. I can't get rid of them as they are required by building code here.

Any advice on less RFI susceptible models would be appreciated.
73,
Will AA4NC

From wa4pgm at embarqmail.com  Tue Jul  9 17:59:03 2019
From: wa4pgm at embarqmail.com (Kyle Chavis)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:59:03 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] WTB: Ham IV or Tailtwister
Message-ID: <e4cf9bfc-a158-aed4-76f6-9a6de585063f@embarqmail.com>

Took a lightening strike Saturday night and in desperate need of a Ham 
IV rotor or equivalent. Willing to drive to Raleigh area to pick up or 
some where within 2 or 3 hours of Farmville, VA.
Thanks,
Kyle, WA4PGM

PS: Please feel free to share this message.

From irv47mc at gmail.com  Sat Jul 13 13:35:25 2019
From: irv47mc at gmail.com (Irv [K3IRV] McWherter)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:35:25 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] Yaesu FT-2000
Message-ID: <CABhtpCJg=xmgTYpJi4aTZ6Wh1k_OJx5WYppR-su4oXX5p5aPbw@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know of a Yaesu Repair guy here on the east coast.  the tuner
is not working and I'd rather find a guy closer than the factory in CA.

Thanks and 73, Irv.

From bill at axelrods.org  Sun Jul 14 09:57:02 2019
From: bill at axelrods.org (Bill Axelrod)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 09:57:02 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] K3WA in IARU 2019
Message-ID: <CAJ_MLyX=3hhsq4Vuo4zNwoX9tTFK0cNmAvh-hmDN0dMUZOX8Ew@mail.gmail.com>

Soapbox:

     Very P/T.  Yesterday was my b'day and family dragged me away from the
radio most of the day.  Did 20 and 15 meters.  Evening conditions on 20M
were pretty good here.  Was able to sustain a pretty good run with many EU
and SA stations calling along with one ZL running 100 watts and a flagpole
for my antenna.

K3WA
Operator Category : SINGLE-OP, Assisted Category : NON-ASSISTED, Band :
ALL,             Power : LOW, Mode : CW

Band     QSOs     Pts  ITU  HQ
      14     161       393   18   22
      21      40          74    6    6
Total       201        467   24   28

Claimed Score : 24,284

Rig :   Flex 6600
Antenna :   20 ft flagpole

73...   Bill

From n4ydunate at gmail.com  Sun Jul 14 12:57:07 2019
From: n4ydunate at gmail.com (Nathan Moreschi)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 12:57:07 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] IARU NR3X (N4YDU)
Message-ID: <CAODp0Y8z2mXeqEb56okfNTRMO80c4=odM7ZeMGNm2OVGrGsN8g@mail.gmail.com>

IARU HF World Championship - 2019

Call: NR3X
Operator(s): N4YDU
Station: N4YDU

Class: SOAB(A)Mixed HP
QTH: NC
Operating Time (hrs): 23
Radios: SO2R

Summary:
 Band  CW Qs  Ph Qs  Zones  HQ Mults
-------------------------------------
  160:    72     0     10       15
   80:   253    14     22       31
   40:   534   242     28       42
   20:   526   328     28       36
   15:   247    22     18       24
   10:    86    15      7       15
-------------------------------------
Total:  1718   621    113      163  Total Score = 1,558,572

Club: Potomac Valley Radio Club

Comments:

Lots of fun with summer conditions. Nice to work several EU HQ stations on 10
and 15 meters.

Had a rough start with some station issues but managed to get rolling and really
enjoyed this one.

73,

Nate/N4YDU

Stats:

Cabrillo Statistics           (Version 10g)           by K5KA &
N6TVhttp://bit.ly/cabstat

CONTEST: IARU-HF
CALLSIGN: NR3X
CATEGORY-OPERATOR: SINGLE-OP
CATEGORY-TRANSMITTER: ONE
OPERATORS: N4YDU

-------------- Q S O   R a t e   S u m m a r y ---------------------
Hour     160     80     40     20     15     10    Rate Total    Pct
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1200       0      0     30     49      7      2     88     88    3.8
1300       0      0      0     79     24      0    103    191    8.2
1400       0      0      0      5     15     49     69    260   11.1
1500       0      0      0     67     64      0    131    391   16.7
1600       0      0      0     93     17      0    110    501   21.4
1700       0      0      0    112     18      7    137    638   27.3
1800       0      0      0     56     52      3    111    749   32.0
1900       0      0      0     65     24     13    102    851   36.4
2000       0      0      0     80     25     15    120    971   41.5
2100       0      0      0     42     17     12     71   1042   44.5
2200       0      0     62     50      3      0    115   1157   49.5
2300       0      3     84     50      0      0    137   1294   55.3
0000       0      3    112     40      1      0    156   1450   62.0
0100       9     35    122      4      1      0    171   1621   69.3
0200      10     18     42     42      0      0    112   1733   74.1
0300       8     56     54      4      0      0    122   1855   79.3
0400       9     34     44      3      0      0     90   1945   83.2
0500       8     16     59      0      0      0     83   2028   86.7
0600      11     44     19      0      0      0     74   2102   89.9
0700       8     18     27      0      0      0     53   2155   92.1
0800       6     21     14      0      0      0     41   2196   93.9
0900       3     17     26      0      0      0     46   2242   95.9
1000       0      2     43      3      0      0     48   2290   97.9
1100       0      0     38     10      1      0     49   2339  100.0
------------------------------------------------------
Total     72    267    776    854    269    101   2339

Gross QSOs=2382        Dupes=43        Net QSOs=2339

Unique callsigns worked = 1421

The best 60 minute rate was 178/hour from 0107 to 0206
The best 30 minute rate was 194/hour from 0106 to 0135
The best 10 minute rate was 228/hour from 1546 to 1555

The best 1 minute rates were:
 7 QSOs/minute    1 times.
 6 QSOs/minute    9 times.
 5 QSOs/minute   34 times.
 4 QSOs/minute   86 times.
 3 QSOs/minute  223 times.
 2 QSOs/minute  355 times.
 1 QSOs/minute  385 times.

There were 773 bandchanges and 398 (17.0%) probable 2nd radio QSOs.

Number of letters in callsigns
Letters  # worked
-----------------
   3        12
   4      1089
   5       889
   6       334
   7         4
   8         4
   9         5
  10         2

------------ M u l t i p l i e r   S u m m a r y ------------
Mult     160     80     40     20     15     10  Total    Pct
-------------------------------------------------------------
08        34    105    256    329    126     51    901   38.5
07         4     38     91    153     32      8    326   13.9
06         3     20     76    106      9      0    214    9.1
28         1     12     93     62     11      4    183    7.8
04         7     14     41     48     29     10    149    6.4
29         0      2     54     21      2      0     79    3.4
11         4     11     18     12     10      0     55    2.4
27         1      1     15     14      4      5     40    1.7
09         1      5      4      7      4      3     24    1.0
02         0      4      9     11      0      0     24    1.0
37         1      2     10      3      1      0     17    0.7
15         0      4      4      3      4      0     15    0.6
R2         1      2      5      3      1      0     12    0.5
12         0      1      7      2      1      0     11    0.5
03         0      2      3      6      0      0     11    0.5
61         0      2      5      2      2      0     11    0.5
IARU       1      2      2      2      2      1     10    0.4
REF        1      1      2      2      2      2     10    0.4
36         1      1      4      1      1      2     10    0.4
14         0      2      5      2      1      0     10    0.4
18         0      2      3      4      1      0     10    0.4
CRC        1      1      1      2      2      2      9    0.4
ARRL       1      2      2      2      1      0      8    0.3
AC         1      1      1      3      1      1      8    0.3
10         0      1      2      5      0      0      8    0.3
ZRS        1      1      2      1      2      1      8    0.3
RSGB       1      1      2      2      1      1      8    0.3
DARC       1      1      2      2      1      1      8    0.3
BFRA       1      1      2      2      1      1      8    0.3
UBA        1      1      1      2      1      2      8    0.3
HRS        1      1      2      1      1      1      7    0.3
PZK        0      1      2      2      1      1      7    0.3
ARI        0      1      2      2      1      1      7    0.3
FRC        1      1      2      2      0      0      6    0.3
SRS        0      1      2      1      1      1      6    0.3
OVSV       0      1      1      2      2      0      6    0.3
URE        1      1      2      1      1      0      6    0.3
FRR        0      2      2      1      1      0      6    0.3
59         0      0      5      1      0      0      6    0.3
RSB        0      1      1      1      1      1      5    0.2
LRMD       1      1      1      1      1      0      5    0.2
USKA       0      1      1      1      1      1      5    0.2
39         0      1      2      2      0      0      5    0.2
60         0      1      2      1      1      0      5    0.2
RSM        0      1      1      1      1      0      4    0.2
BARC       0      1      1      1      0      0      3    0.1
CARS       0      0      1      1      1      0      3    0.1
EDR        0      1      1      1      0      0      3    0.1
VRONA      0      1      1      1      0      0      3    0.1
SSA        0      1      1      1      0      0      3    0.1
NRRL       0      1      1      1      0      0      3    0.1
55         0      0      1      1      1      0      3    0.1
RCA        0      1      1      1      0      0      3    0.1
REP        0      0      1      1      0      0      2    0.1
LRAL       0      0      1      1      0      0      2    0.1
SRAL       0      0      1      1      0      0      2    0.1
VERON      0      1      1      0      0      0      2    0.1
GRC        0      0      1      1      0      0      2    0.1
NZART      0      0      1      1      0      0      2    0.1
01         0      0      1      1      0      0      2    0.1
IRTS       0      1      1      0      0      0      2    0.1
30         0      0      0      2      0      0      2    0.1
57         0      1      0      1      0      0      2    0.1
45         0      0      2      0      0      0      2    0.1
13         0      0      1      1      0      0      2    0.1
RCU        0      0      0      0      1      0      1    0.0
31         0      0      0      1      0      0      1    0.0
ARM        0      0      1      0      0      0      1    0.0
16         0      0      1      0      0      0      1    0.0
RL         0      0      0      1      0      0      1    0.0
RCP        0      0      1      0      0      0      1    0.0
46         0      0      1      0      0      0      1    0.0
97         0      0      1      0      0      0      1    0.0
RCC        0      0      1      0      0      0      1    0.0
JARL       0      0      1      0      0      0      1    0.0
------------------------------------------------------
Total     72    267    776    854    269    101   2339

Multi-band QSOs
---------------
1 bands     962
2 bands     256
3 bands     110
4 bands      47
5 bands      30
6 bands      16

The following stations were worked on 6 bands:

VE3DZ       K1DJ        WI2E        VE3EJ       NU1AW       TM0HQ
VE3TG       EF8R        K5WA        OL9HQ       9A0HQ       S50HQ
GR2HQ       DA0HQ       LZ0HQ       OP0HQ

------- S i n g l e   B a n d   Q S O s ------
Band    160     80     40     20     15     10
----------------------------------------------
QSOs      4     44    362    466     62     24

From tsrwvcomm at aol.com  Sun Jul 14 15:17:52 2019
From: tsrwvcomm at aol.com (Ted)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 15:17:52 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] IARU HF - N9NB at W9PA
Message-ID: <B3DFB4CC-0BFF-4B47-A515-21B4945DDB5B@aol.com>

While on vacation in the Midwest this last week, Dave, W9PA, was kind to host me at his station just north of Indianapolis.

It was like old times, since this is the same home that Dave and his wife used to host the N9MM multi-multi operations in the early 1980's. I had 3 hours of down time to socialize with my hosts. Conditions seemed remarkably good compared to the last couple of years, with EU open 24 hours on 20 and Asia open on 20 throughout  most of the deep night. EU stations could be heard on 10m from sun up to sun down. 

73 ted N9NB 

IARU HF World Championship   2019   Jul 13   Claimed Score

Click on a call below for a list of all the contests for which that call sign is listed as an operator. Click on the [email] link to send an e-mail to the contester who posted the claimed score.

Call: W9PA
Operator(s): N9NB 
Station: W9PA

Class: SOABMixed LP
QTH: IN
Operating Time (hrs): 24 
Location: USA

Summary:   Compare Scores
Band	CW Qs	Ph Qs	Zones	HQ Mults
160:	68	7	8	3
80:	150	1	11	10
40:	293	9	24	22
20:	338	112	26	33
15:	118	18	16	19
10:	60	31	8	11
Total:	1027	178	93	98	Total Score	562,495
 

Club: Potomac Valley Radio Club

From dongladwell1 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 14 16:56:53 2019
From: dongladwell1 at gmail.com (Don Gladwell)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 16:56:53 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] FW: IARU W4BBT SOABSSB HP
In-Reply-To: <20190714200019.1.31015C253E88B5D3@b4h.net>
References: <20190714200019.1.31015C253E88B5D3@b4h.net>
Message-ID: <007e01d53a86$aaeaf050$00c0d0f0$@gmail.com>

Worked about 14 hours with time off for dinner with the wife.  

Based on my total score, I think I should have spent more time S&P for zones
and HQ mults instead of calling.   According to by stats, 240 or 68% of my
355 Qs were zones 04, 07 & 08.  

My best 60 minute run rate was 72/hour from 0048 to 0147, the best 30 minute
rate was 90/hour from 0105 to 0134, the best 10 minute rate was 102/hour
from 0108 to 0117. (Not even close to grasshopper)  

 I am learning that just making Qs doesn't always get you many points.  I
wasn't particularly fond of those alphabetic HQ abbreviations.  With all the
different  accents around the world, some were impossible to determine even
after hearing them several times.  

But I did have a good time which is what counts.

Don/W4BBT

-----Original Message-----
From: webform at b4h.net [mailto:webform at b4h.net] 
Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2019 4:00 PM
To: 3830 at contesting.com; dongladwell1 at gmail.com
Subject: IARU W4BBT SOABSSB HP

                    IARU HF World Championship - 2019

Call: W4BBT
Operator(s): W4BBT
Station: W4BBT

Class: SOABSSB HP
QTH: 
Operating Time (hrs): 

Summary:
 Band  CW Qs  Ph Qs  Zones  HQ Mults
-------------------------------------
  160:                           
   80:          15      3      12
   40:         110     11      13
   20:         228     16      19
   15:           1      1        
   10:           1      1        
-------------------------------------
Total:   0     355     32      44  Total Score = 52,060

Club: Potomac Valley Radio Club

Comments:




Posted using 3830 Score Submittal Forms at: http://www.3830scores.com/


From k4ha at att.net  Tue Jul 16 10:36:01 2019
From: k4ha at att.net (Robert Lukaszewski)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:36:01 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] P3 For Sale
Message-ID: <007901d53be3$cb3a53b0$61aefb10$@att.net>

I have an Elecraft P3 with VGA adapter for sale.  Works great and in like
new condition.

 

Asking $600 Shipped.. Text or call if you want any other info..

 

PayPal is OK

 

Thanks

Bob

 

Bob Lukaszewski    K4HA

6009 Brass Lantern Ct

Raleigh NC 27606-9335

919-215-2018

 


From mike at bentwire.net  Tue Jul 16 18:10:48 2019
From: mike at bentwire.net (Mike Barts)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 18:10:48 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] Olympics Results
Message-ID: <CAPHnhco9+oPz-np6yqzONsCVM6OZq7HuqqoBzRPCZ++_eMKgYQ@mail.gmail.com>

The June VHF contest wrapped up the 2018-2019 Contest season, the Olympics
has ended for last season. Below is the preliminary list of medal
finalists. If you think you're listed incorrectly, please contact me and
we'll sort it out. Congrats to all and its not too early to begin thinking
about the 2019-2020 Olympics!


Gold

Silver

Bronze

Bronze

AA3S

AB3CV

AJ3M

N3WD

AC3BU

K4GMH

K2AV

N4PD

K0OO

K4MI

K2WK

N4UA

K2YWE

K4ORD

K3MM

N8AID

K3AJ

K4QPL

K3NDM

NC3Y

K4XL

K7SV

K3RA

NN3W

K5VIP

KE3X

K3TD

NR4C

KB3VQC

KK4R

K3TN

NX3Z

KE4S

N3HEE

K3YDX

W3CB

N3DPB

N3JT

K4HQK

W3GB

N3QE

N4CW

K4QS

W3IDT

N4CF

N4ZR

K8LF

W3LPL

N4GU

N6DW

KA4RRU

W3MMM

N4MM

NR4M

KC4D

W3YOZ

N4YDU

W3EKT

KD4D

W4BBT

ND3D

W3FA

KG3V

W4KAZ

NR4O

W3IP

KQ4LA

W4WWQ

W2CDO

W4AAW

N1RM

W4YE

W2GPS

W4PK

N3AM

W8LYJ

W3GVX

WA3AER

N3CW

WB4FDT

W3LL

WA3EKL

N3DUE

WR3R

W3OU

WM3T

N3HBX

WR3Z

W3UL

WM3T

N3KN

WX3B

W3YY



N3OC

W4JAM

N3UA

W4VIC

N3UM

73, Mike N4GU
-- 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I kin brain inglish and mouth it gud
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From tsrwvcomm at aol.com  Wed Jul 17 01:46:25 2019
From: tsrwvcomm at aol.com (Ted)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 01:46:25 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] Fwd: For your consideration
References: <6D140300-1A77-4225-81BF-EAD9D7741320@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <A7F8EAD3-BA25-4EDE-9FF8-5E2A665DA0E4@aol.com>

> FYI- an email list of all arrl board members is below....please consider getting many people to write them all! Here is a letter I just sent to the entire ARRL board.... I hope you will also write them today, and let your views be known to them before their board meeting this Friday.
>> 
>> T U es 73,
>> Ted N9NB 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> From: Theodore Rappaport <tr51 at nyu.edu>
>>>>>> Date: July 17, 2019 at 12:16:49 AM EDT
>>>>>> To: w3tom at arrl.org, w9xa at arrl.org, K0BBC at arrl.org, k5uz at arrl.org, k5ur at aol.com, WA8EFK at arrl.org, n2rj at arrl.net, k0das at arrl.org, Fred Hopengarten <k1vr at arrl.org>, N5AUS at n5aus.com, w7vo at arrl.org, k6jat at arrl.org, w2ru at arrl.org, k0rm at arrl.org, w4ozk at arrl.org, "Richard J. Norton, N6Aa" <n6aa at arrl.org>
>>>>>> Subject: For your consideration
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Dear ARRL Board Members:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As you prepare to do important work for our avocation at the upcoming board
>>>>>> meeting, I write as a fellow ham who,
>>>>>> like you, wishes to improve and 
>>>>>> perpetuate our hobby.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I wanted to make sure you had correct information about an important topic that impacts the future of our hobby.  Some advocates of Winlink cling to information which I and others know to simply be inaccurate, and they would have you accept such inaccurate information as fact.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Pactor and Winlink emails are not allowed in most of the 161 ITU treaty countries. There is no treaty with the US state department to send email (3rd party messages) to about 110 of the 161 countries in the ITU. See:
>>>>>> http://www.arrl.org/third-party-operating-agreements
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Thus," ham-to-non ham" emails to over 100 countries violate US State dept. 3rd party rules. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The email data in the Winlink network is not screened manually by humans before transmission;
>>>>>> so, unlike old-time phone patches, where a human ham provided oversight to all traffic over the ham spectrum, the store and forward messages are not screened and are dumped into the ham bands without oversight, and without knowledge or oversight by the control ops (RMS stations) before the data is sent over the ham spectrum. To me, it seems that Winlink operates more like a "common carrier" email system rather than an amateur radio service mode for "ham to ham" communication.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Here is a vital question: Is it fair to allow a small group of email sysops to self-enforce and operate a global email network in the ham bands, where messages are not prescreened and are mostly ham-to-non-ham communication, or should all data in ham radio be open,
>>>>>> over the air, so that the *entire* ham community (not just a chosen few) can apply oversight, peer pressure, and learn what is going on over the air?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And how can a tiny group of sys ops be trusted to properly run a global email system in the ham spectrum, when no other entity does this in ham radio? Doesn't this violate the use of ham radio to bypass
>>>>>> other available commercial email systems?  And what if a new email entity or new coding method pops up in our hobby?
>>>>>> Wouldn't we all want transparency of "over the air" data? 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And is a "web viewer" provided by the Winlink email system truly to be trusted, when all the raw bits of all the emails and the "back end" of the Winlink traffic system are hidden from public view. What if there is a breakdown in the web viewer, or time delays due to back end problems? How can anyone guarantee that a web viewer matches true over the air transmissions? Why empower a tiny group to do this, when so much obfuscation and objection has occurred  for decades?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And in an emergency, how can anyone Direction-find a station in distress with a web viewer? Only over the air transparency can help in an emergency. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> How can anyone know if the web viewing system, or parts or all of the data hidden from view, is being tampered with? Isn't ham radio about openness and transparency?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A group of us tried to resolve these issues in good faith, but as ARRL Attorney Dave Siddall reported this week to the FCC, unfortunately one group wanted an all-or-none position in these issues. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There are various videos and demonstrations that claim Winlink modes can be decoded for meaning over the air, but these are contrived situations, with no fading and perfect channel state present; or the videos show the rarely-used keyboard to keyboard mode, which are uncompressed modes  of Pactor 2 and 3,4. This uncompressed mode could be used by Winlink, and this would solve all issues with data transparency over the air!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Please read www.pactor.com 
>>>>>> to help inform your decisions, to see how virtually no one uses Pactor in an open way, for keyboard to keyboard qso's or for ACDS (the Winlink system).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When ARQ or compression is being used in Winlink modes, effective encryption occurs.
>>>>>> If Winlink would stop using ARQ and compression, and would use "unprotected" modes based solely on Forward Error Control (as is done in ft-8 and the original Pactor 1 and AMTOR packet modes) , all would be well, and the Winlink data would be open and compliant with Part 97, as it  
>>>>>> would be open for intercept just like ALL other data modes. This could easily be done by Winlink. They merely would need to turn off the ARQ and compression, and operate in a broadcast mode, just
>>>>>> like all other data modes in ham radio. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This could easily be done by the Winlink modes, if they wished to, just as is done in FT-8 and RTTY, etc.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Everyone can read for themselves the Winlink FAQ,
>>>>>> Q&A 260, to see how Winlink intentionally hides the meaning of the messages when eavesdropped over the air:
>>>>>> https://www.winlink.org/sites/default/files/wl2k_faq_20150314.pdf
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> "Data transferred from through Winlink 2000 using the Keyboard method is not compressed; therefore it is
>>>>>> readable by other listeners" ........, unfortunately, in that document, the full truth is not stated in that same document, which is; open decoding only occurs in the unprotected kybd-kybd uncompressed mode. When the proprietary compression is used, as in the case of Winlink, security is obtained through its effective encryption.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And also seet Section II.c on page 3 for "how the Winlink guru is offering a prize" if anyone can crack the encryption, but no one ever has:
>>>>>>  http://www.la3f.no/faste/digi/winlink/ExpressTutorial1130a.pdf
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> THIS  is what you get when using Sourcerer to try and decode Winlink- see the actual decode by N1FM. You will see this using your own w1aw Winlink account: 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/new-digital-petition-at-the-fcc-rm-11831.652589/page-61
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Here is an honest ham talking about Winlink:
>>>>>> https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filing/1222718116209
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> How can we expect kids to join our hobby,
>>>>>> or create  a future arsenal of technical experts if such obfuscation occurs, or if this lack of transparency is placated ? 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> What kind of parent would want their kids to get into this hobby if grown adults can't get together, be honest and open about what is happening, and work out a compromise that includes transparency?
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> The rancor and deception that has surrounded Winlink for the last 20 years does not help our hobby, or our long term STEM issues. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You have an opportunity to end this rancor,  and to set the hobby on an honest and open footing. 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> If you support effectively encrypted data, our hobby will likely deteriorate and continue to suffer anemic growth. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But if you support open, over the air transparency, great things will happen like it did in the early days of Pactor 1 and AMTOR. Winlink programmers will come up with new and exciting broadcast modes that are both open and more efficient, rather than relying on 20 year old technology that does not lend itself to open experimentation or transparency in innovation. 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> For the long term, we won't attract youth to the hobby if we continue to support hidden messages or a lack of openness to all activities in ham radio. And youth are the key to our country's future. Youth aren't likely to be excited about 20-year old email technology that is effectively encrypted. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Please, Let's create an open culture that is inviting to young people. Please be sensitive to these issues in your upcoming board meeting.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thank you for your consideration. I am at your service.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Vy  73 ted N9NB
>>>>>> 

From tsrwvcomm at aol.com  Wed Jul 17 08:44:36 2019
From: tsrwvcomm at aol.com (Ted)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:44:36 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] Fwd: [PVRC] How to View Winlink Traffic
References: <41609035-586F-45AF-AED5-1C676D8BA06C@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4F9A2846-8182-4E6B-9D9E-AC07B4D96AFC@aol.com>

This is completely contrived...... they either created signals within the same shack, or on a very nearby antenna, or waited for s9+40 dB type signals with no fading. 
> 
> Then they contrived an experiment such that with zero loss of any bits, and perfect synchronization and many a prior items that would not be known to a listner in general, they could very rarely get a short message decoded.
> 
> This is Not at all "real world" or typical of a man in the middle trying to copy, and they know it.
> 
> As I told the FCC last year, ARQ was mostly developed for wireline channels with no fading, where all nodes on the wire know the precise channel state and hear all acknowledgements  and transmissions perfectly. 
> 
> Any fading whatsoever, and a single lost bit in the transmission path, obscures the traffic for meaning by a listening 3rd party in these email systems when they use ARQ and Compression.
> 
> Why 5 messages decoded in 20 years!?
> 
> Why can't arrl's modem, or anyone else's modem, do what his contrived experiment does?
> 
> This is Just another attempt to obfuscate, hide from the truth, claim that there is "nothing there to see," and break the part 97 rules for the use of an email system that lets our spectrum be used for ham-to-non-ham email and business use.
> 
> In short, I hope people see why this is further  indication why everyone must write the FCC and ARRL directors today- let them know you want all ham radio data to be openly understandable by others (not in contrived conditions, but in general). Let them know that all ham radio data and operations must be open and that you object to the ham spectrum being used as a common carrier for non ham email.
> 
> If the advocates of private email in ham radio  would go so far to stage such propaganda, how can this to group be entrusted  to maintain and provide a "Winlink message viewer?".
> 
> Without complete transparency in all we do in ham radio, how can the hobby grow and cultivate experimentation and fair use of the spectrum? Please speak out- T U
> 
> 73 ted N9NB 
> 
> Sent from smartphone, please excuse typos
> 
>> On Jul 16, 2019, at 9:33 PM, Lee - N2LEE via PVRC <pvrc at mailman.qth.net> wrote:
>> 
>> There was an interesting paper just released by Gordon Gibby, KX4Z on how to "Spy on Winlink".
>> The document demonstrates how to receive Winlink traffic regardless if the protocol is Pactor or any protocol being used.
>> 
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cBOkmjllUF9GLQuzPFZnxFHWuJszTzgU/view?usp=sharing
>> 
>> Here is a part of the Preface from his paper.
>> 
>> "This is the story of how I apparently become the first person to
>> document how to spy on, or crack a WINLINK mode. As you?ll soon
>> find out, WINLINK is not encrypted, and so there is NO REASON why
>> anyone couldn?t do what I did, or even much better."
>> 
>> Pretty interesting considering the debate surround this topic.
>> 
>> Lee - N2LEE
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 16, 2019, at 8:56 PM, pvrc-request at mailman.qth.net wrote:
>>> 
>>> Send PVRC mailing list submissions to
>>> 	pvrc at mailman.qth.net
>>> 
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> 	http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/pvrc
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> 	pvrc-request at mailman.qth.net
>>> 
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> 	pvrc-owner at mailman.qth.net
>>> 
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of PVRC digest..."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Today's Topics:
>>> 
>>>   1. ARRL Board of Directors to Meet July 19-20 - POSSIBLE VOTE	ON
>>>      EFFECTIVELY ECNRYPTED DATA (Ted Rappaport N9NB)
>>>   2. 1A0C loud on 7.004 up ~2 (roland.anders at comcast.net)
>>>   3. Force 12 C3 For Sale (Ed Kucharski)
>>>   4. SWVA Chapter Meeting Tomorrow! (Anthony Brooks)
>>>   5. FW:  1A0C loud on 7.004 up ~2 (W3YY)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 18:59:49 -0400
>>> From: "Ted Rappaport N9NB" <tsrwvcomm at aol.com>
>>> To: <pvrc at mailman.qth.net>, "'CTDXCC List List'"
>>> 	<ctdxcc at lists.kkn.net>,	<tsrwvcomm at aol.com>
>>> Subject: [PVRC] ARRL Board of Directors to Meet July 19-20 - POSSIBLE
>>> 	VOTE	ON EFFECTIVELY ECNRYPTED DATA
>>> Message-ID: <017a01d53c2a$2c380720$84a81560$@aol.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> 
>>> Dear Colleagues: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> There is an important upcoming ARRL board meeting on Friday July 19, 2019?3 days from now. 
>>> 
>>> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/2019%20Board%20of%20Directors/01%20Agenda%202019%20July%20Board%20Meeting.pdf
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please spread the word to forums and clubs, and please take a few moments for our wonderful avocation. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> For the first time ever, there may be  a vote on ?effectively encrypted? data in ham radio at the ARRL Board meeting- just in a few days!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> You can see what is happening at ARRL and Winlink/ARSFI and what they are telling the FCC! It is quite revealing, and is why you must write ARRL directors today ***before the board meeting** about what you want for the future of ham radio!
>>> 
>>> https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filing/107152292806056
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Although many ARRL directors and hams around the world know that Pactor and other Winlink data signals cannot be decoded over the air by others (no one has reported the W1AW Pactor or other Winlink modes can intercept other Winlink traffic over the air!), some people still ?claim? to the FCC that, through contrived experiments, there is ?nothing there to see?: 
>>> 
>>> https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1071540521688/FCCCommentJuly2019.pdf
>>> 
>>> https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filing/10715183432187
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> After 20 years, the charade continues, even though hams and many ARRL Directors know that this stuff, which is 20 year old technology, cannot be decoded by others over the air, even if you have a Pactor modem or another Winlink sound card.
>>> 
>>> https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filing/1222718116209
>>> 
>>> http://www.pactor.com/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please write the ARRL DIRECTORS before the board meeting this Friday ? let your voice be heard on what you want for ham radio.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Let the ARRL Board know that ham radio should be open for all, with all transmitted data readily available for open decoding, for meaning,  by any listener over the air.  This is the only way our avocation can self-police, ensure transparency in all that happens on our airwaves, ensure emergency assistance when needed, and keep out business and commercial bypass. All of the ARRL director addresses are easily found and pasted into your email at: 
>>> 
>>> https://wireless-girl.com/ARRL_officers.html (refresh your browser at that page).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> PLEASE, today, urge the ARRL Directors to **end the use of ham radio as a common carrier email system***. Please spread the word to all hams you know, and urge that the current ARRL directors vote for all data to be open and transparent for over-the-air intercept.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hopefully, with many , many simple emails to the ARRL Directors:  (1) expressing your desire to have them represent our hobby and take actions such that all radio transmissions may be received over the air in an open, transparent way, and (2)protesting the use of ham radio  as a pseudo-commercial email system that lets ham radio be used to provide email service to any non-ham and to any business, including spam,  without any human oversight of the emails that go out over the air.  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In taking a few minutes out of your day for our hobby, please think how NOT addressing this issue could impact the future of our country, our hobby, and our amateur radio spectrum for the long term. thanks for your interest and for spreading the word before Friday.  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 73 ted n9nb  
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 19:53:41 -0400
>>> From: <roland.anders at comcast.net>
>>> To: "'PVRC'" <pvrc at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Subject: [PVRC] 1A0C loud on 7.004 up ~2
>>> Message-ID: <00c701d53c31$b30215a0$190640e0$@comcast.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:17:08 -0400 (EDT)
>>> From: Ed Kucharski <k3dne at comcast.net>
>>> To: PVRC <pvrc at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Subject: [PVRC] Force 12 C3 For Sale
>>> Message-ID: <689669840.713227.1563322629387 at connect.xfinity.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> 
>>> I hate to part with this antenna however the space at my new QTH is just not big enough. 
>>> 
>>> It is a Force 12 C3 tribander. It has been on the ground for the last 15 months and for the last year stored in my garage. It is partially disassembled - I broke down several of the longer elements (by removing the rivets). The boom is still at it's full 18 foot length. I can provide a couple of photos of it sitting in my garage if interested. I have the manual but it is buried either in a box in the garage or at my storage unit in Greenwood SC. When I come across it I will forward to the new owner.
>>> 
>>> $300.
>>> 
>>> Pick-up at my temporary QTH in Simpsonville, SC.
>>> 
>>> 73,
>>> 
>>> Ed K3DNE
>>> 
>>> 410-274-6261
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>>> 
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:53:01 -0400
>>> From: Anthony Brooks <glen.anthony.brooks at gmail.com>
>>> To: pvrc-roabburg at groups.io, PVRC <pvrc at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Subject: [PVRC] SWVA Chapter Meeting Tomorrow!
>>> Message-ID:
>>> 	<CA+DC6GLAD9EwXP5KsAFj5Jqj5XM1pX83yV6hvg=1zzVdj_GV5Q at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> 
>>> Just a reminder that tomorrow evening, there will be a SWVA Chapter PVRC
>>> meeting at 630PM at Jersey Lily's in Salem.
>>> 
>>> Hope to see plenty of folks tomorrow night.
>>> 
>>> 73 de
>>> Anthony, WM3T
>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>> 
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:56:10 -0400
>>> From: "W3YY" <w3yy at cox.net>
>>> To: "'PVRC Reflector'" <pvrc at mailman.qth.net>
>>> Subject: [PVRC] FW:  1A0C loud on 7.004 up ~2
>>> Message-ID: <020d01d53c3a$6f2d09d0$4d871d70$@cox.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>> 
>>> Just running barefoot, I just worked him on the first call.  He was
>>> listening up 1.  He's 599+ here.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 73, Bob - W3YY
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: pvrc-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:pvrc-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On
>>> Behalf Of Rol K3RA via PVRC
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 7:54 PM
>>> To: 'PVRC'
>>> Subject: [PVRC] 1A0C loud on 7.004 up ~2
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>> 
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> PVRC mailing list
>>> PVRC at mailman.qth.net
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/pvrc
>>> 
>>> 
>>> End of PVRC Digest, Vol 186, Issue 55
>>> *************************************
>>> 
>> 
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> PVRC mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/pvrc
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:PVRC at mailman.qth.net
>> Message delivered to tsrwvcomm at aol.com
>> 
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

From tsrwvcomm at aol.com  Wed Jul 17 21:41:06 2019
From: tsrwvcomm at aol.com (Ted)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:41:06 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] FYI for your network
References: <650BB4DC-3FA7-4EF7-A6B8-883184961648@aol.com>
Message-ID: <A18CCB4C-3722-4B1A-AB9E-8698840278B5@aol.com>

Before the ARRL meeting tomorrow, please be sure that you, and everyone you know in ham radio, write to all ARRL Directors to uphold our government's regulations for our hobby. 

And please ask everyone you know to support RM-11831 and reject WT 16-239 at the FCC ECFS! 

Here is why. Feel free to alert others!

> As discussed below.......
>> Interesting story about Winlink email usage in the amateur radio spectrum. 

>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/telecom/wireless/is-ham-radio-a-hobby-a-utilityor-both-a-battle-over-spectrum-heats-up.amp.html
>> 
And then today we have this completely inaccurate account of the failed ARRL negotiations being perpetrated by ARSFI/ Winlink's email-in-chief, and a vow by the Midwest director K9XA to vote at the ARRL board meeting this week for adding more effectively encrypted email traffic into ham radio - claiming yet again there is "'nothing here to see"
https://groups.io/g/pactor/topic/32506458#956

Then see this bold text:
>> 
>> ? 97.113 Prohibited transmissions.
>> (a) No amateur stationshall transmit:
>> 
>> (1) Communications specifically prohibited elsewhere in this part;
>> 
>> (2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules;
>> 
>> (3) Communications in which the station licensee or control operator has a pecuniary interest, including communications on behalf of an employer, with the following exceptions:
>> 
>> (i) A station licensee or station control operatormay participate on behalf of an employer in an emergency preparedness or disaster readiness  testor drill, limited to the duration and scope of such  test or drill, and operational testing immediately prior to such  test or drill.  Testsor drills that are not government-sponsored are limited to a total time of one hour per week; except that no more than twice in any calendar year, they may be conducted for a period not to exceed 72 hours.
>> 
>> (ii) An amateur operatormay notify other amateur operators of the availability for sale or trade of apparatus normally used in an amateur station, provided that such activity is not conducted on a regular basis.
>> 
>> (iii) A control operatormay accept compensation as an incident of a teaching position during periods of time when an amateur station is used by that teacher as a part of classroom instruction at an educational institution.
>> 
>> (iv) The control operatorof a club station may accept compensation for the periods of time when the station is transmitting telegraphy practice or information bulletins, provided that the station transmits such telegraphy practice and bulletins for at least 40 hours per week; schedules operations on at least six  amateur service MF and HF bands using reasonable measures to maximize coverage; where the schedule of normal operating times and frequencies is published at least 30 days in advance of the actual transmissions; and where the  control operator does not accept any direct or indirect compensation for any other service as a  control operator.
>> 
>> (4) Music using a phoneemission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification.
>> 
>> (5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio services
>> 
>> ====
>> Then consider: Here are other radio service alternatives that may be used regularly for email (e.g., that are in FCC radio services such as Part 80 and Part 90 that are not hobby, ham-to-ham communications as required by Part 97 ):
>> 
>>  www.ocens.com
>> 
>> https://sailmail.com/
>> 
>> https://www.iridium.com/solutions/maritime/leisure/

From n4kwpete at centurylink.net  Wed Jul 17 22:36:12 2019
From: n4kwpete at centurylink.net (Pete Raymond)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:36:12 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] Up coming NR4M feed/meeting
Message-ID: <bd8596fb-1d18-97f6-f2ee-72026931ef8d@centurylink.net>

Just wondering if any members from this area go up for the
PVRC get together at NR4M's Qth come Sept.

73, Pete, N4KW


From tsrwvcomm at aol.com  Thu Jul 18 09:14:19 2019
From: tsrwvcomm at aol.com (Ted)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:14:19 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] How Winlink effectively encrypts- in their own words .....
Message-ID: <BC3C5799-9582-4AEA-BAD3-5D099EA34145@aol.com>

The use of ARQ and Proprietary compression and FEC together make it virtually impossible for hams to intercept the over the air signals for meaning. 

This is a violation of Part 97.113(a)4 and enables many more violations,
Including illegal 3rd party messages from "non-hams to hams" and vice versa. 

This is not about Pactor 4, it's about *any* mode that cannot be intercepted for meaning. 

AMBE and Fusion are easily decoded using an available chip, Winlink data modes cannot be intercepted for meaning over the air. Period. 

Even given what they have published and claim is documented. 

Read this to learn more, and see how even if a compression scheme is fully publicly known, the use of ARQ with FEC and compression provides an illegal "security by obscurity". 

It's like knowing how a "zip file" works is public, but missing just one bit makes it impossible to open the zip file for a 3rd party observer, while the lone secret recipient has the knowledge of that one missing bit, and recovers the secret file. 

That's how Winlink data transmissions work in ham radio.  See this confession, and let all of Hamdom and ARRL board members know about this.

Here's the entire email thread of Winlink programmers and users discussing "getting around FCC rules," and how hard it is to decode for meaning ARQ with compression, minus the re-quoted messages. 

See how Winlink ARSFI board member Tom Whiteside wants to change the topic and End the Thread! 

Is this what we want for ham radio? Is this an open use of the spectrum? Let your ARRL board members and the FCC ECFS today know that you support RM-11831 and the requiment of only open, transparent data for over the air copy, and urge rejection of WT 16-239.
 
?Security by obscurity?  is mentioned here. These are emails from yahoo groups in 2016. Spread rhe word--hams need to see this confession and inform ARRL board members and the FCC about such this activity in ham radio.

73, ted N9NB  
 
Subject:
[Winlink_Programs_Group] Digest Number 2817
Date: 
5 Sep 2016 02:29:46 -0000
From: 
Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: 
No Reply <notify-dg-Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com>
To: 
Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com



3 
Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Sun Sep 4, 2016 11:31 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
steve_k6eta 
Is there a way to directly monitor/decode WINMOR traffic heard on the air? Can a terminal or chat program connect to 127.0.0.1 port 8500 on a machine running an instance of the WINMOR TNC similar to the ARDOP Chat situation? 

Thanks, 
Steve K6ETA 
2a 
Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Tue Sep 6, 2016 9:56 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
steve_k6eta 
I hear crickets chirping... heh. 

I would presume we get around the ?97.113 (4) edict that prohibits "messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning" by allowing a sysop to monitor his/her relayed traffic? 

It would be nice to provide a way to allow the larger amateur community to decode and monitor WINMOR transmissions. I imagine this opens up a can of worms with PACTOR, but at least anyone who wants to spend big $$$ on a PACTOR modem should be able to monitor?? 

Aside from wishing to monitor other WINMOR traffic to better understand propagation and QTH of stations, it would also be nice to assure that the system isn't being used for prohibited transmissions (information for pecuniary interest, re-transmission of programs, etc.) 

I suppose it could be argued that ?97.219 (b) covers the potential abuses and lays all of the enforcement responsibilities on the shoulders of the sysop. If would be nice, however, if other stations could help in this regard by providing a way for wider monitoring... just a thought. 
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (5) . Top ^


2b Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Tue Sep 6, 2016 11:24 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
"Hal" hal_merritt 
97.113 (4) does not apply since there is nothing being encoded for the 
purpose of obscuring meaning. The encoding is for the purposes of speed and 
accuracy. And possibly for testing purposes.

The ways to monitor PACTOR traffic involve licensed technology. If you want 
to use the technology, then you must pay for it. Nothing illegal there. 
Anyone who wants to monitor WINMOR / ARDOP is free to write the software. 
The waveform specs are published. That said, *I think* that the terms of 
the WINMOR license prohibit commercial use, so no one can build and sell a 
decoding device/software. They would have to give it away or at least share 
the proceeds. I think.

SYSOPs can monitor all the traffic if they wish, and many do.

hal kd5hw
2c Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Tue Sep 6, 2016 1:30 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
la7um 
As I see it, this is based on the principle of F6FBB which was used in packet radio BBSs from the 80/90ies. Compression for the sake of speed and accuracy, protocoll published, and sysops could read all. 
73 de LA7UM Finn
2d Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Tue Sep 6, 2016 6:51 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
"Matthew Pitts" daywalker_blade_2004 
Finn,

Yes, F6FBB was involved with the development, but you can't get certain folks in the US outside of Winlink to understand that the data compression used by Winlink is the same as what's used by pretty much every packet BBS out there because they do not want to believe anything of the sort. Just like they refuse to accept that a majority of whatever interference they experience is simply a matter of the infamous "hidden transmitter effect" where one side of a QSO can be heard and triggers the busy channel detection, but when the other station transmits, the ACDS station thinks the channel is clear and transmits in reply to a connect request.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU
1a Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Wed Sep 7, 2016 2:49 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
daveskolnick 

---In Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com, <k6eta at ...> wrote : 

> I would presume we get around the ?97.113 (4) edict that prohibits "messages 
> encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning" by allowing a sysop to 
> monitor his/her relayed traffic? 

It doesn't apply so we aren't getting around anything. 

> It would be nice to provide a way to allow the larger amateur community to 
> decode and monitor WINMOR transmissions. 

Other commenters have missed an important point. The protocol retransmits packets not received by the intended receiver. There is no guarantee that a monitor will get all the packets. That makes reassembly of the entire message problematic. A monitor can get most of the message but may well not get all of it. This is the case with any ARQ protocol including PACTOR and packet. 

73 es sail fast de dave KO4MI 
S/V Auspicious 

1b Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Wed Sep 7, 2016 5:11 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
"Christopher Story" radionerds 
All,

I've kinda held back on this one as I'm new to the forum, but I think I can
contribute here..

I've written many parsers for networking and application protocols for
capture applications like wireshark. In a few cases there were lots of
pushback on doing so because it was felt that the complexity of the
protocol, sequences, structure and compression contributed to its security
(security by obscurity) even though it was fully documented.

What we have are people who want to "see all" without having to do a
protocol analysis. They want someone else to do the heavy lifting and make
it easy.

Part 97 says nothing about easy, just that the meaning isn't intentionally
being encrypted.

Additionally it also doesn't say that it needs to be "readable" by all
hams, really that it just needs to be readable by the fcc. If the fcc
wanted to monitor winmor they can do so, it's documented

Chris
K6RWJ
1c Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Wed Sep 7, 2016 8:51 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
"W6IDS" w6ids2003 
AHHH! Some fresh air. . . . .. thank you Sir.

Howard W6IDS
Richmond, IN
2 Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? END OF THREAD please 
Wed Sep 7, 2016 5:30 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
"Tom Whiteside" n5tw 
Thanks for the comments on this but let?s move on to other topics. END OF THREAD.

Tom N5TW
2a Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:23 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
steve_k6eta 
Thanks and understood. 

OK, so if we read Part 97 to mean that the FCC, not all hams and SWL stations, should be able to monitor the traffic, I can see how the burden is lifted for encoding software (binary, PACTOR, WINMOR, etc) to provide a general means for monitoring. It's published and the FCC could monitor if they wish. I agree with this logic. 

So then my request becomes something more like, "gee, it sure would be nice to have someone write software that could be used to monitor such traffic..." and again, I agree that is simply a request thrown out there. 

But what I hope is obvious is that this isn't just a personal request for the convenience of just a one or a few stations. Hopefully everyone can see how this would benefit the quality and security of our allocated band spectra in an era where the FCC is scaling back on enforcement? 

Thanks everyone, 
Steve K6ETA 


1a 
Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:14 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
"Rick Muething" kn6kb 
Steve (K6ETA),

The problem of monitoring ARQ transmissions is a technical one...not 
just software. If two stations are connected in an ARQ session 
forwarding messages each has the ability to request a repeat of a data 
frame (through the ARQ mechanism) until it gets a proper frame decode. 
This is the basic mechanism that all ARQ systems (and BBSs that use ARQ) 
work. It applies to Pactor, WINMOR, the new ARDOP in development etc.

Also Winlink and other BBS systems often use binary encoded compression. 
This takes a simple text message (or attached text or other file) and 
compressed it (something like ZIP) for transmission. This can save 
typically 50% on text messages and more (or less) on other file types. 
But if just one byte of the compressed message is not received correctly 
it is impossible (well at least VERY difficult) to decompress the 
message and get the original text or compressed files. A station 
monitoring such a transmission would have to receive EVERY ARQ frame 
perfectly without being able to request a repeat from the sending 
station. (ARQ occurs only between the TWO connected 
stations...monitoring stations can't request a repeat)

So while it is technically feasible to monitor and decode (there is no 
encryption of the message ...that is illegal on ham frequencies) it is 
extremely difficult to recover a message completely by just monitoring. 
With a lot of work and fancy software it might be possible to recover 
parts of a message that is compressed but that is not very practical and 
would require some tricky software (decompression with missing data) to 
get anything.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

73,
Rick Muething, KN6KB Winlink developer and author of WINMOR and ARDOP
 
3a Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:19 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
steve_k6eta 
Hi Rick, 

Understood. As with any monitoring process, some info will certainly be lost due to condx. I wasn't hoping to reconstruct partially rx'd frames, just the ability to decode fully copied ones... 

Again, many thanks for your development efforts - I'm enjoying ARDOP Chat and can't wait to see ARDOP released on Winlink Express! My RMS will finally be 100% low-power once I can get rid of the Windows hogs! Even the Windows tablet I have for WINMOR (everything else is RPi) is a drag on my solar powered batteries... 

ARDOP is a godsend! 

-Steve K6ETA 
 
3b Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:54 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
"Christopher Story" radionerds 
Rick is quite right regarding the difficulty is assembling error correcting
transmissions.. about 20 years ago i wrote a "man in the middle" monitoring
application for a proprietary data transfer protocol.

It was difficult to say the least and we were using perfect capture files,
where data fidelity is 100% from the monitoring applications perspective.

With an over the air protocol you have that plus transmission path issues.

I shutter thinking about re-assembling that.

Someone would need to open their checkbook with at least a 50% deposit to
start..

Chris STORY
K6RWJ
3c Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? 
Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:50 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
"Matthew Pitts" daywalker_blade_2004 
Plus, with an ARQ protocol, you have to know or be able to figure out the actual data rate including any FEC, and operating bandwidth, on the fly while trying to decode it. Even having every aspect of it published it's not going to be an easy task.
Matthew PittsN8OHUCo-developer of ARDOP




From bill at axelrods.org  Sun Jul 21 09:42:44 2019
From: bill at axelrods.org (Bill Axelrod)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 09:42:44 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] K3WA in NAQP RTTY
Message-ID: <CAJ_MLyXrHR9ZqrjbHFqfDJ_S1x8u+UOW-Gz59Uc0ean4EJOdtQ@mail.gmail.com>

Part time effort.  I had planned to make more of an effort but had
thunderstorms overhead for the first three hours or so.  By the time the
storms moved on I had missed the 10 and 15 meter openings.  Rats!.  Only
got about four hours in after that.

Low power and a compromised antenna sure makes a guy humble.

Log submitted.

K3WA
Pittsboro, NC
SO LP non-assisted
Team:  PVRC

Summary:
 Band  QSOs  Mults
-------------------
   80:    1     1
   40:   99    28
   20:  100    30
   15:    0     0
   10:    0     0
-------------------
Total:  200    59  Total Score = 11,800

Rig:  Flex 6600
Antenna:  Flagpole

From tsrwvcomm at aol.com  Sun Jul 21 18:41:42 2019
From: tsrwvcomm at aol.com (Ted Rappaport N9NB)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 18:41:42 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] [PVRC] ARRL-FCC
In-Reply-To: <CADS1cDQzRxTMzx2ZX1AeECSJZoWKUecytU26wzim94=bAad2Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190721152225.B8C91149B4CF@mailman.qth.net>
	<CADS1cDQzRxTMzx2ZX1AeECSJZoWKUecytU26wzim94=bAad2Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004501d54015$78728680$69579380$@aol.com>

A minority of My ARRL Voice people are avid Winlink supporters (They are on the west coast, where avid Winlink contester N6AA lives), so MAV is not going to touch the Winlink issues or FCC violations, just like many ARRL board members won?t touch it. 

 

The only way to preserve the hobby?s tenets of openness and technological innovation is to elect board members to ARRL who are open minded and willing to look at facts on their merits, rather than what is entrenched or what has been allowed to happen in the past.

 

There is a saying, those who don?t innovate are dead:

 

See this: https://www.fastcompany.com/1810048/adapt-or-die-enduring-rule-innovation

and this: https://valuer.ai/blog/50-examples-of-corporations-that-failed-to-innovate-and-missed-their-chance/

 

Without innovative board members who can think for the long term, and take actions that spawn innovation and regrowth and rebirth, it will be difficult for either ARRL or MAV to take the needed steps to advance our hobby.

 

73 ted n9nb

 

73 ted n9nb

 

 

From: pvrc-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:pvrc-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Dan K2YWE via PVRC
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 4:16 PM
To: Richard Brown
Cc: PVRC Mailman
Subject: Re: [PVRC] ARRL-FCC

 

The is an established FB page called "My ARRL Voice." It started up about a year or two ago. It was/is pretty effective in waking up much of the ARRL leadership.




Dan Zeitlin - K2YWE
South Shore ARC - K3AU
Annapolis, Maryland
dan z website <http://danzee.org> 

 

 

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 11:22 AM Richard Brown via PVRC <pvrc at mailman.qth.net> wrote:

Rhetorically speaking, why doesn?t someone create a groups.io group about discussions of ARRL and FCC policies and politics.  Invite all and enjoy the drama.   We could all join, and most of us can turn off the emails.  We could read them only when we log into the group and need to be depressed.  As a benefit, most of the emails in the PVRC reflector would be about contests, stations and social events.  

 

For more drama, create a Facebook page.

 

Just a suggestion, and there is no way I would manage such a group.

 

Rick

NN4RB

 

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From tsrwvcomm at aol.com  Sun Jul 21 19:12:10 2019
From: tsrwvcomm at aol.com (Ted Rappaport N9NB)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 19:12:10 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] [PVRC] How to View Winlink Traffic
In-Reply-To: <CA+ueoy6FxCcV47EcmCndNChJ6UV9fZp=XWBLhkhR=swagAhxyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.21411.1563324983.2818.pvrc@mailman.qth.net>	<F30CCDF4-ECED-498C-8A71-03EC6A3094C5@n2lee.com>
	<CA+ueoy6FxCcV47EcmCndNChJ6UV9fZp=XWBLhkhR=swagAhxyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d54019$bad41940$307c4bc0$@aol.com>

Dear Tyler, Lee, and others who keep asking for proof that Winlink?s data is effectively encrypted (as if they believe it is somehow open). Here is some proof:

 

1.       See the vast comments filed in RM-11708 in 2013/2014 (and historic complaints and evidence in RM?11306)

2.       See: https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1071863434533/FINAL%20VERSION%20Siddall%20reply%20June%2018.pdf

3.       See: https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/10718632326911/July%2018%2C%202019%20Ex%20Parte%20Filing.pdf

4.       See: https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filing/1222718116209

5.       See: Appendix B in: https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1040322516387/FCC%20Letter%20RM%2011831%20final.pdf

6.       See N1FM decoding: https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/wide-bandwidth-digital-danger.639948/page-21

7.       See the discussion of how Pactor differs from FT-8; where Pactor is only open in the peer-to-peer mode www.pactor.com

8.       See admission by Pactor modem maker SCS stating they know a decoder is not available and requires substantial resources: https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/10417301289214/SCS_FCC_Comment_RM11831.pdf

9.       I have publicly, in front of the FCC, asked ARRL board members numerous times over the past 6 months to use W1AW and Pactor modems that they have in Newington to try and decode over the air, for meaning, other Winlink signals. They have not provided any evidence of conducting these experiments, but as noted below, 3 ARRL officials have openly admitted they know it cannot be decoded.

10.   I have emails, sent personally to me,  from 2 ARRL board members that they know Pactor cannot be decoded over the air by hams.

11.   N5AUS, director of ARRL in Texas, admitted at a recent CTDXCC meeting that he knew Pactor cannot be decoded over the air by hams. It was witnessed by 20 peopole in Austin who voted unanimously that all data transmitted in ham radio must be open for over the air interception for true meaning.

12.   The experiment by Gordon Gibby has been completely debunked in front of the FCC: https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1071758880862/Reply%20to%20Gibby%20comments.pdf

 

In the face of all of this evidence, one must ask why do Winlink supporters continue to hold on to the view that their data is open for intercept, and why does the ARRL board take no action. Let us hope they do not try and advance Pactor 4 or any hint of 16-239 without FIRST  addressing the glaring violations of the basic tenets of amateur radio. 

 

Lee, Tyler, is this sufficient to satisfy your question?

73 ted n9nb

 

From: pvrc-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:pvrc-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tyler R. (K3MTR) via PVRC
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2019 10:53 AM
To: Lee - N2LEE
Cc: PVRC
Subject: Re: [PVRC] How to View Winlink Traffic

 

Just a few short days ago, the claim was made that Winlink was "effectively encrypted" and no one in the world had been able to recover a Winlink transmission. One of our very own members in the community at large stepped up and used good old fashioned amateur experimentation to permanently dispell the lie that Winlink is encrypted. I thought for sure that would end the debate, or at least end the use of the term "encryption" in this debate.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to write their own scientific paper to counter that argument with a proof that it actually is encrypted.

 

The claim has also been made that Winlink traffic is unnecessary, and could be facilitated by other means. The same could be said by any non-ham about the HF bands, while pointing to their cell phone.

 

When Armageddon hits us, I'd like to think all the work we hams have been doing would be in preparation for when we're actually needed. The best time to prepare for an emergency is before it strikes, right?

 

It is my understanding that traffic nets -- even our beloved CW nets -- are often consumed with nothing more exciting than "happy birthday" messages and "congrats on your license", but they keep the system well-oiled for when a true emergency strikes and we're called on for message passing.

 

Winlink boasts a network that shares thousands of messages a month. If we shoot from the hip and kill that with poor legislation, we will have destroyed a capability of ham radio that cell phones don't have.

 

There will always be lids who will want and try to abuse the system. I'm sure you can find someone who thinks 2m ham radio is encrypted and private just because they can pick their own frequency that's far away from 146.520 and turn on C4FM digital. Should we ban that next? All because someone mistakenly thinks it's encrypted?

 

I believe there actually is a valid concern underneath all this fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD), about spectrum usage, abuse of the service by lids, and by another mode of operation creeping in and taking over the bands, pushing the rest of us out. But we should take the high road and make a strong case using those arguments instead of lying and spreading FUD with terms like "encryption".

 

Just as a reminder, here is the work of that amateur radio operator who was called to action to "break" the Winlink "encryption":

 

 <https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cBOkmjllUF9GLQuzPFZnxFHWuJszTzgU/view?usp=sharing> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cBOkmjllUF9GLQuzPFZnxFHWuJszTzgU/view?usp=sharing

If that's the best crypto a ham can come up with, we're in poor shape.

I look forward to reading the scientific paper response on true Winlink encryption.

73 de Tyler R., K3MTR cellular

 

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 9:33 PM Lee - N2LEE via PVRC <pvrc at mailman.qth.net> wrote:

There was an interesting paper just released by Gordon Gibby, KX4Z on how to "Spy on Winlink".

The document demonstrates how to receive Winlink traffic regardless if the protocol is Pactor or any protocol being used.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cBOkmjllUF9GLQuzPFZnxFHWuJszTzgU/view?usp=sharing

 

Here is a part of the Preface from his paper.

 

"This is the story of how I apparently become the first person to

document how to spy on, or crack a WINLINK mode. As you?ll soon

find out, WINLINK is not encrypted, and so there is NO REASON why

anyone couldn?t do what I did, or even much better."

 

Pretty interesting considering the debate surround this topic.

 

Lee - N2LEE

 

 

 

 

 

On Jul 16, 2019, at 8:56 PM, pvrc-request at mailman.qth.net wrote:

 

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Today's Topics:

  1. ARRL Board of Directors to Meet July 19-20 - POSSIBLE VOTE ON
     EFFECTIVELY ECNRYPTED DATA (Ted Rappaport N9NB)
  2. 1A0C loud on 7.004 up ~2 (roland.anders at comcast.net)
  3. Force 12 C3 For Sale (Ed Kucharski)
  4. SWVA Chapter Meeting Tomorrow! (Anthony Brooks)
  5. FW:  1A0C loud on 7.004 up ~2 (W3YY)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 18:59:49 -0400
From: "Ted Rappaport N9NB" <tsrwvcomm at aol.com>
To: <pvrc at mailman.qth.net>, "'CTDXCC List List'"
<ctdxcc at lists.kkn.net>, <tsrwvcomm at aol.com>
Subject: [PVRC] ARRL Board of Directors to Meet July 19-20 - POSSIBLE
VOTE ON EFFECTIVELY ECNRYPTED DATA
Message-ID: <017a01d53c2a$2c380720$84a81560$@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear Colleagues: 



There is an important upcoming ARRL board meeting on Friday July 19, 2019?3 days from now. 

http://www.arrl.org/files/file/2019%20Board%20of%20Directors/01%20Agenda%202019%20July%20Board%20Meeting.pdf



Please spread the word to forums and clubs, and please take a few moments for our wonderful avocation. 



For the first time ever, there may be  a vote on ?effectively encrypted? data in ham radio at the ARRL Board meeting- just in a few days!



You can see what is happening at ARRL and Winlink/ARSFI and what they are telling the FCC! It is quite revealing, and is why you must write ARRL directors today ***before the board meeting** about what you want for the future of ham radio!

https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filing/107152292806056



Although many ARRL directors and hams around the world know that Pactor and other Winlink data signals cannot be decoded over the air by others (no one has reported the W1AW Pactor or other Winlink modes can intercept other Winlink traffic over the air!), some people still ?claim? to the FCC that, through contrived experiments, there is ?nothing there to see?: 

https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1071540521688/FCCCommentJuly2019.pdf

https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filing/10715183432187



After 20 years, the charade continues, even though hams and many ARRL Directors know that this stuff, which is 20 year old technology, cannot be decoded by others over the air, even if you have a Pactor modem or another Winlink sound card.

https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filing/1222718116209

http://www.pactor.com/



Please write the ARRL DIRECTORS before the board meeting this Friday ? let your voice be heard on what you want for ham radio.



Let the ARRL Board know that ham radio should be open for all, with all transmitted data readily available for open decoding, for meaning,  by any listener over the air.  This is the only way our avocation can self-police, ensure transparency in all that happens on our airwaves, ensure emergency assistance when needed, and keep out business and commercial bypass. All of the ARRL director addresses are easily found and pasted into your email at: 

https://wireless-girl.com/ARRL_officers.html (refresh your browser at that page).



PLEASE, today, urge the ARRL Directors to **end the use of ham radio as a common carrier email system***. Please spread the word to all hams you know, and urge that the current ARRL directors vote for all data to be open and transparent for over-the-air intercept.



Hopefully, with many , many simple emails to the ARRL Directors:  (1) expressing your desire to have them represent our hobby and take actions such that all radio transmissions may be received over the air in an open, transparent way, and (2)protesting the use of ham radio  as a pseudo-commercial email system that lets ham radio be used to provide email service to any non-ham and to any business, including spam,  without any human oversight of the emails that go out over the air.  



In taking a few minutes out of your day for our hobby, please think how NOT addressing this issue could impact the future of our country, our hobby, and our amateur radio spectrum for the long term. thanks for your interest and for spreading the word before Friday.  



73 ted n9nb  

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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 19:53:41 -0400
From: <roland.anders at comcast.net>
To: "'PVRC'" <pvrc at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [PVRC] 1A0C loud on 7.004 up ~2
Message-ID: <00c701d53c31$b30215a0$190640e0$@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:17:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ed Kucharski <k3dne at comcast.net>
To: PVRC <pvrc at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [PVRC] Force 12 C3 For Sale
Message-ID: <689669840.713227.1563322629387 at connect.xfinity.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I hate to part with this antenna however the space at my new QTH is just not big enough. 

It is a Force 12 C3 tribander. It has been on the ground for the last 15 months and for the last year stored in my garage. It is partially disassembled - I broke down several of the longer elements (by removing the rivets). The boom is still at it's full 18 foot length. I can provide a couple of photos of it sitting in my garage if interested. I have the manual but it is buried either in a box in the garage or at my storage unit in Greenwood SC. When I come across it I will forward to the new owner.

$300.

Pick-up at my temporary QTH in Simpsonville, SC.

73,

Ed K3DNE

410-274-6261
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:53:01 -0400
From: Anthony Brooks <glen.anthony.brooks at gmail.com>
To: pvrc-roabburg at groups.io, PVRC <pvrc at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [PVRC] SWVA Chapter Meeting Tomorrow!
Message-ID:
<CA+DC6GLAD9EwXP5KsAFj5Jqj5XM1pX83yV6hvg=1zzVdj_GV5Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Just a reminder that tomorrow evening, there will be a SWVA Chapter PVRC
meeting at 630PM at Jersey Lily's in Salem.

Hope to see plenty of folks tomorrow night.

73 de
Anthony, WM3T
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:56:10 -0400
From: "W3YY" <w3yy at cox.net>
To: "'PVRC Reflector'" <pvrc at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [PVRC] FW:  1A0C loud on 7.004 up ~2
Message-ID: <020d01d53c3a$6f2d09d0$4d871d70$@cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Just running barefoot, I just worked him on the first call.  He was
listening up 1.  He's 599+ here.



73, Bob - W3YY





From: pvrc-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:pvrc-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On
Behalf Of Rol K3RA via PVRC
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 7:54 PM
To: 'PVRC'
Subject: [PVRC] 1A0C loud on 7.004 up ~2





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End of PVRC Digest, Vol 186, Issue 55
*************************************

 

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From tsrwvcomm at aol.com  Sun Jul 21 19:19:27 2019
From: tsrwvcomm at aol.com (Ted Rappaport N9NB)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 19:19:27 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] [CTDXCC] [PVRC] How to View Winlink Traffic
In-Reply-To: <000001d54019$bad41940$307c4bc0$@aol.com>
References: <mailman.21411.1563324983.2818.pvrc@mailman.qth.net>	<F30CCDF4-ECED-498C-8A71-03EC6A3094C5@n2lee.com>
	<CA+ueoy6FxCcV47EcmCndNChJ6UV9fZp=XWBLhkhR=swagAhxyA@mail.gmail.com>
	<000001d54019$bad41940$307c4bc0$@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001301d5401a$be5cfc70$3b16f550$@aol.com>

This is also for Tyler, Lee and others who wonder how ARSFI and Winlink effectively encrypt their data over amateur radio.  We can only nope ARRL board members are aware and dealing with this issue before allowing a wider pipe for effectively encrypted data. Read to the end ?its not going to be an easy task?, hence providing the ?security by obscurity? mentioned below.  


Subject: 

[Winlink_Programs_Group] Digest Number 2817


Date: 

5 Sep 2016 02:29:46 -0000


From: 

Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com


Reply-To: 

No Reply  <mailto:notify-dg-Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com> <notify-dg-Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com>


To: 

Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com


3 

Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25223-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzcXZjcGltBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTIyMwRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMDQyNTg2&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=-VhEmn3nhYCvcGRGay074iO0ZnwpxAVicdciTk_lyis&e=>  

Sun Sep 4, 2016 11:31 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

steve_k6eta <mailto:k6eta at comcast.net?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  

Is there a way to directly monitor/decode WINMOR traffic heard on the air? Can a terminal or chat program connect to 127.0.0.1 port 8500 on a machine running an instance of the WINMOR TNC similar to the ARDOP Chat situation? 

Thanks, 
Steve K6ETA 

2a 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25256-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzZ29qNzNlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI1NgRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjMzMDgz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=WKvHIKji0e41ltsYM2HLKwO4j170ySxJ48gfxfGhnDc&e=>  

Tue Sep 6, 2016 9:56 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

steve_k6eta <mailto:k6eta at comcast.net?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  

I hear crickets chirping... heh. 

I would presume we get around the ?97.113 (4) edict to that prohibits "messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning" by allowing a sysop to monitor his/her relayed traffic? 

It would be nice to provide a way to allow the larger amateur community to decode and monitor WINMOR transmissions. I imagine this opens up a can of worms with PACTOR, but at least anyone who wants to spend big $$$ on a PACTOR modem should be able to monitor?? 

Aside from wishing to monitor other WINMOR traffic to better understand propagation and QTH of stations, it would also be nice to assure that the system isn't being used for prohibited transmissions (information for pecuniary interest, re-transmission of programs, etc.) 

I suppose it could be argued that ?97.219 (b) covers the potential abuses and lays all of the enforcement responsibilities on the shoulders of the sysop. If would be nice, however, if other stations could help in this regard by providing a way for wider monitoring... just a thought. 

Reply to sender <mailto:k6eta at comcast.net?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  . Reply to group <mailto:Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  . Reply via Web Post <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_messages_25256-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzNmE0dHY5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI1NgRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxNDczMjMzMDgz-3Fact-3Dreply-26messageNum-3D25256&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=o1GU5D4OZqYKerTPgYJVeBWnAqxaM63hqnEyPWxJHKc&e=>  . All Messages (5) <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25223-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTM4OHNuaXV0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI1NgRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjMzMDgzBHRwY0lkAzI1MjIz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=pgbBFh9odftJ0O7ErB-emOm87uVuxqdAIaBb8oVMfFk&e=>  . Top ^





2b 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25257-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzaXY1dmtvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI1NwRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjMzMDgz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=jKZhzF6Y5EnwFA0uMcNhMt2jhOnOWJ3y6BwkAx2O5oM&e=>  

Tue Sep 6, 2016 11:24 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:hal.kd5hw at gmail.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "Hal" hal_merritt 

97.113 (4) does not apply since there is nothing being encoded for the 
purpose of obscuring meaning. The encoding is for the purposes of speed and 
accuracy. And possibly for testing purposes.

The ways to monitor PACTOR traffic involve licensed technology. If you want 
to use the technology, then you must pay for it. Nothing illegal there. 
Anyone who wants to monitor WINMOR / ARDOP is free to write the software. 
The waveform specs are published. That said, *I think* that the terms of 
the WINMOR license prohibit commercial use, so no one can build and sell a 
decoding device/software. They would have to give it away or at least share 
the proceeds. I think.

SYSOPs can monitor all the traffic if they wish, and many do.

hal kd5hw

2c 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25258-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzMWw4ODZlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI1OARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjMzMDgz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=Br8c99Gqr2JaGC3B09JORcy5kAgWLOiDCV_wPdFo_VU&e=>  

Tue Sep 6, 2016 1:30 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 

la7um <mailto:la7um at yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  

As I see it, this is based on the principle of F6FBB which was used in packet radio BBSs from the 80/90ies. Compression for the sake of speed and accuracy, protocoll published, and sysops could read all. 
73 de LA7UM Finn

2d 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25261-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzN3MxcDZiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI2MQRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjMzMDgz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=vNkY3OuFOZosc4KuMBtLxhW0dRzTf4Xr9AAMcQ28278&e=>  

Tue Sep 6, 2016 6:51 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:daywalker_blade_2004 at yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "Matthew Pitts" daywalker_blade_2004 

Finn,

Yes, F6FBB was involved with the development, but you can't get certain folks in the US outside of Winlink to understand that the data compression used by Winlink is the same as what's used by pretty much every packet BBS out there because they do not want to believe anything of the sort. Just like they refuse to accept that a majority of whatever interference they experience is simply a matter of the infamous "hidden transmitter effect" where one side of a QSO can be heard and triggers the busy channel detection, but when the other station transmits, the ACDS station thinks the channel is clear and transmits in reply to a connect request.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

1a 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25264-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzMHB0NWVtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI2NARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjgyNDAw&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=YhMCDbgSHJQsRJCByJvPF1Udo9Apr_Sxwk1iFTQvTHg&e=>  

Wed Sep 7, 2016 2:49 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

daveskolnick <mailto:dskolnick at gmail.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  


---In Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com, <k6eta at ...> wrote : 

> I would presume we get around the ?97.113 (4) edict that prohibits "messages 
> encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning" by allowing a sysop to 
> monitor his/her relayed traffic? 

It doesn't apply so we aren't getting around anything. 

> It would be nice to provide a way to allow the larger amateur community to 
> decode and monitor WINMOR transmissions. 

Other commenters have missed an important point. The protocol retransmits packets not received by the intended receiver. There is no guarantee that a monitor will get all the packets. That makes reassembly of the entire message problematic. A monitor can get most of the message but may well not get all of it. This is the case with any ARQ protocol including PACTOR and packet. 

73 es sail fast de dave KO4MI 
S/V Auspicious 




1b 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25265-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzbHNyYzNvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI2NQRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjgyNDAw&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=-OLIPlW8OwWauMKHpH2TBVRu3woa3Hs_UyzJ4K90-gw&e=>  

Wed Sep 7, 2016 5:11 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:ke6rwj at gmail.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "Christopher Story" radionerds 

All,

I've kinda held back on this one as I'm new to the forum, but I think I can
contribute here..

I've written many parsers for networking and application protocols for
capture applications like wireshark. In a few cases there were lots of
pushback on doing so because it was felt that the complexity of the
protocol, sequences, structure and compression contributed to its security
(security by obscurity) even though it was fully documented.

What we have are people who want to "see all" without having to do a
protocol analysis. They want someone else to do the heavy lifting and make
it easy.

Part 97 says nothing about easy, just that the meaning isn't intentionally
being encrypted.

Additionally it also doesn't say that it needs to be "readable" by all
hams, really that it just needs to be readable by the fcc. If the fcc
wanted to monitor winmor they can do so, it's documented

Chris
K6RWJ

1c 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25271-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzNTVqOXBsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI3MQRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjgyNDAw&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=5BQnABgaOc0WcrI4f3Z4yWWZaRZyjXEbpd5IfOCC1fk&e=>  

Wed Sep 7, 2016 8:51 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:w6ids at frontier.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "W6IDS" w6ids2003 

AHHH! Some fresh air. . . . .. thank you Sir.

Howard W6IDS
Richmond, IN

2 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? END OF THREAD please <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25266-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzbnA2ZTBiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI2NgRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjgyNDAw&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=Olw0nzV4Qeu6J2SQWeJIlKyX_v5N17yipTC-oaqrgEU&e=>  

Wed Sep 7, 2016 5:30 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:tomw at ecpi.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F%20END%20OF%20THREAD%20please> "Tom Whiteside" n5tw 

Thanks for the comments on this but let?s move on to other topics. END OF THREAD.

Tom N5TW

2a 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25357-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzODhkaWFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTM1NwRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczNTc4ODYx&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=VnJ8LoBX6007egIUgbzvNW622cvTDuWiNLylBsO0b4s&e=>  

Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:23 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 

steve_k6eta <mailto:k6eta at comcast.net?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  

Thanks and understood. 

OK, so if we read Part 97 to mean that the FCC, not all hams and SWL stations, should be able to monitor the traffic, I can see how the burden is lifted for encoding software (binary, PACTOR, WINMOR, etc) to provide a general means for monitoring. It's published and the FCC could monitor if they wish. I agree with this logic. 

So then my request becomes something more like, "gee, it sure would be nice to have someone write software that could be used to monitor such traffic..." and again, I agree that is simply a request thrown out there. 

But what I hope is obvious is that this isn't just a personal request for the convenience of just a one or a few stations. Hopefully everyone can see how this would benefit the quality and security of our allocated band spectra in an era where the FCC is scaling back on enforcement? 

Thanks everyone, 
Steve K6ETA 






1a 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25359-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzMGR0aWFuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTM1OQRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczNjQzNDk1&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=xcXE2wrSmD1l8ryIEsQiOCfvr-_wdzxworqch_NnpdY&e=>  

Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:14 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:rmuething at cfl.rr.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "Rick Muething" kn6kb 

Steve (K6ETA),

The problem of monitoring ARQ transmissions is a technical one...not 
just software. If two stations are connected in an ARQ session 
forwarding messages each has the ability to request a repeat of a data 
frame (through the ARQ mechanism) until it gets a proper frame decode. 
This is the basic mechanism that all ARQ systems (and BBSs that use ARQ) 
work. It applies to Pactor, WINMOR, the new ARDOP in development etc.

Also Winlink and other BBS systems often use binary encoded compression. 
This takes a simple text message (or attached text or other file) and 
compressed it (something like ZIP) for transmission. This can save 
typically 50% on text messages and more (or less) on other file types. 
But if just one byte of the compressed message is not received correctly 
it is impossible (well at least VERY difficult) to decompress the 
message and get the original text or compressed files. A station 
monitoring such a transmission would have to receive EVERY ARQ frame 
perfectly without being able to request a repeat from the sending 
station. (ARQ occurs only between the TWO connected 
stations...monitoring stations can't request a repeat)

So while it is technically feasible to monitor and decode (there is no 
encryption of the message ...that is illegal on ham frequencies) it is 
extremely difficult to recover a message completely by just monitoring. 
With a lot of work and fancy software it might be possible to recover 
parts of a message that is compressed but that is not very practical and 
would require some tricky software (decompression with missing data) to 
get anything.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

73,
Rick Muething, KN6KB Winlink developer and author of WINMOR and ARDOP

 

3a 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25823-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzNTY4OXNhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTgyMwRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDc3MTIxMTMz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=W7SwHdeewxHB981OwSR5CvQSwjXJeD4VfQwz2XEUoOY&e=>  

Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:19 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 

steve_k6eta <mailto:k6eta at comcast.net?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  

Hi Rick, 

Understood. As with any monitoring process, some info will certainly be lost due to condx. I wasn't hoping to reconstruct partially rx'd frames, just the ability to decode fully copied ones... 

Again, many thanks for your development efforts - I'm enjoying ARDOP Chat and can't wait to see ARDOP released on Winlink Express! My RMS will finally be 100% low-power once I can get rid of the Windows hogs! Even the Windows tablet I have for WINMOR (everything else is RPi) is a drag on my solar powered batteries... 

ARDOP is a godsend! 

-Steve K6ETA 

 

3b 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25824-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzcTdhMnBtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTgyNARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDc3MTIxMTMz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=Kvnjgh0Wgs8ysBRWsX5oG9zJDEaRTuOBm0Sn30I94KI&e=>  

Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:54 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:ke6rwj at gmail.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "Christopher Story" radionerds 

Rick is quite right regarding the difficulty is assembling error correcting
transmissions.. about 20 years ago i wrote a "man in the middle" monitoring
application for a proprietary data transfer protocol.

It was difficult to say the least and we were using perfect capture files,
where data fidelity is 100% from the monitoring applications perspective.

With an over the air protocol you have that plus transmission path issues.

I shutter thinking about re-assembling that.

Someone would need to open their checkbook with at least a 50% deposit to
start..

Chris STORY
K6RWJ

3c 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25830-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzZDQ0cm9rBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTgzMARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDc3MTIxMTMz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=cU7sc7KvM-gBJLqqUY_9ajcEpGUXXjOcB3x6YLscx5M&e=>  

Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:50 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:daywalker_blade_2004 at yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "Matthew Pitts" daywalker_blade_2004 

Plus, with an ARQ protocol, you have to know or be able to figure out the actual data rate including any FEC, and operating bandwidth, on the fly while trying to decode it. Even having every aspect of it published it's not going to be an easy task.
Matthew PittsN8OHUCo-developer of ARDOP

 

 

 


From tsrwvcomm at aol.com  Sun Jul 21 19:31:14 2019
From: tsrwvcomm at aol.com (Ted Rappaport N9NB)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 19:31:14 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] [CTDXCC] [PVRC] How to View Winlink Traffic
In-Reply-To: <001301d5401a$be5cfc70$3b16f550$@aol.com>
References: <mailman.21411.1563324983.2818.pvrc@mailman.qth.net>	<F30CCDF4-ECED-498C-8A71-03EC6A3094C5@n2lee.com>
	<CA+ueoy6FxCcV47EcmCndNChJ6UV9fZp=XWBLhkhR=swagAhxyA@mail.gmail.com>
	<000001d54019$bad41940$307c4bc0$@aol.com>
	<001301d5401a$be5cfc70$3b16f550$@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000d01d5401c$64a7d400$2df77c00$@aol.com>

This is also for Tyler, Lee and others who wonder how ARSFI and Winlink effectively encrypt their data over amateur radio.  We can only nope ARRL board members are aware and dealing with this issue before allowing a wider pipe for effectively encrypted data. Read to the end ?its not going to be an easy task?, hence providing the ?security by obscurity? mentioned below.  


Subject: 

[Winlink_Programs_Group] Digest Number 2817


Date: 

5 Sep 2016 02:29:46 -0000


From: 

Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com


Reply-To: 

No Reply  <mailto:notify-dg-Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com> <notify-dg-Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com>


To: 

Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com


3 

Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25223-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzcXZjcGltBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTIyMwRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMDQyNTg2&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=-VhEmn3nhYCvcGRGay074iO0ZnwpxAVicdciTk_lyis&e=>  

Sun Sep 4, 2016 11:31 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

steve_k6eta <mailto:k6eta at comcast.net?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  

Is there a way to directly monitor/decode WINMOR traffic heard on the air? Can a terminal or chat program connect to 127.0.0.1 port 8500 on a machine running an instance of the WINMOR TNC similar to the ARDOP Chat situation? 

Thanks, 
Steve K6ETA 

2a 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25256-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzZ29qNzNlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI1NgRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjMzMDgz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=WKvHIKji0e41ltsYM2HLKwO4j170ySxJ48gfxfGhnDc&e=>  

Tue Sep 6, 2016 9:56 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

steve_k6eta <mailto:k6eta at comcast.net?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  

I hear crickets chirping... heh. 

I would presume we get around the ?97.113 (4) edict to that prohibits "messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning" by allowing a sysop to monitor his/her relayed traffic? 

It would be nice to provide a way to allow the larger amateur community to decode and monitor WINMOR transmissions. I imagine this opens up a can of worms with PACTOR, but at least anyone who wants to spend big $$$ on a PACTOR modem should be able to monitor?? 

Aside from wishing to monitor other WINMOR traffic to better understand propagation and QTH of stations, it would also be nice to assure that the system isn't being used for prohibited transmissions (information for pecuniary interest, re-transmission of programs, etc.) 

I suppose it could be argued that ?97.219 (b) covers the potential abuses and lays all of the enforcement responsibilities on the shoulders of the sysop. If would be nice, however, if other stations could help in this regard by providing a way for wider monitoring... just a thought. 

Reply to sender <mailto:k6eta at comcast.net?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  . Reply to group <mailto:Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  . Reply via Web Post <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_messages_25256-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzNmE0dHY5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI1NgRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxNDczMjMzMDgz-3Fact-3Dreply-26messageNum-3D25256&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=o1GU5D4OZqYKerTPgYJVeBWnAqxaM63hqnEyPWxJHKc&e=>  . All Messages (5) <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25223-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTM4OHNuaXV0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI1NgRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjMzMDgzBHRwY0lkAzI1MjIz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=pgbBFh9odftJ0O7ErB-emOm87uVuxqdAIaBb8oVMfFk&e=>  . Top ^




2b 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25257-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzaXY1dmtvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI1NwRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjMzMDgz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=jKZhzF6Y5EnwFA0uMcNhMt2jhOnOWJ3y6BwkAx2O5oM&e=>  

Tue Sep 6, 2016 11:24 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:hal.kd5hw at gmail.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "Hal" hal_merritt 

97.113 (4) does not apply since there is nothing being encoded for the 
purpose of obscuring meaning. The encoding is for the purposes of speed and 
accuracy. And possibly for testing purposes.

The ways to monitor PACTOR traffic involve licensed technology. If you want 
to use the technology, then you must pay for it. Nothing illegal there. 
Anyone who wants to monitor WINMOR / ARDOP is free to write the software. 
The waveform specs are published. That said, *I think* that the terms of 
the WINMOR license prohibit commercial use, so no one can build and sell a 
decoding device/software. They would have to give it away or at least share 
the proceeds. I think.

SYSOPs can monitor all the traffic if they wish, and many do.

hal kd5hw

2c 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25258-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzMWw4ODZlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI1OARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjMzMDgz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=Br8c99Gqr2JaGC3B09JORcy5kAgWLOiDCV_wPdFo_VU&e=>  

Tue Sep 6, 2016 1:30 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 

la7um <mailto:la7um at yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  

As I see it, this is based on the principle of F6FBB which was used in packet radio BBSs from the 80/90ies. Compression for the sake of speed and accuracy, protocoll published, and sysops could read all. 
73 de LA7UM Finn

2d 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25261-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzN3MxcDZiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI2MQRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjMzMDgz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=vNkY3OuFOZosc4KuMBtLxhW0dRzTf4Xr9AAMcQ28278&e=>  

Tue Sep 6, 2016 6:51 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:daywalker_blade_2004 at yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "Matthew Pitts" daywalker_blade_2004 

Finn,

Yes, F6FBB was involved with the development, but you can't get certain folks in the US outside of Winlink to understand that the data compression used by Winlink is the same as what's used by pretty much every packet BBS out there because they do not want to believe anything of the sort. Just like they refuse to accept that a majority of whatever interference they experience is simply a matter of the infamous "hidden transmitter effect" where one side of a QSO can be heard and triggers the busy channel detection, but when the other station transmits, the ACDS station thinks the channel is clear and transmits in reply to a connect request.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

1a 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25264-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzMHB0NWVtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI2NARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjgyNDAw&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=YhMCDbgSHJQsRJCByJvPF1Udo9Apr_Sxwk1iFTQvTHg&e=>  

Wed Sep 7, 2016 2:49 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

daveskolnick <mailto:dskolnick at gmail.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  


---In Winlink_Programs_Group at yahoogroups.com, <k6eta at ...> wrote : 

> I would presume we get around the ?97.113 (4) edict that prohibits "messages 
> encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning" by allowing a sysop to 
> monitor his/her relayed traffic? 

It doesn't apply so we aren't getting around anything. 

> It would be nice to provide a way to allow the larger amateur community to 
> decode and monitor WINMOR transmissions. 

Other commenters have missed an important point. The protocol retransmits packets not received by the intended receiver. There is no guarantee that a monitor will get all the packets. That makes reassembly of the entire message problematic. A monitor can get most of the message but may well not get all of it. This is the case with any ARQ protocol including PACTOR and packet. 

73 es sail fast de dave KO4MI 
S/V Auspicious 



1b 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25265-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzbHNyYzNvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI2NQRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjgyNDAw&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=-OLIPlW8OwWauMKHpH2TBVRu3woa3Hs_UyzJ4K90-gw&e=>  

Wed Sep 7, 2016 5:11 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:ke6rwj at gmail.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "Christopher Story" radionerds 

All,

I've kinda held back on this one as I'm new to the forum, but I think I can
contribute here..

I've written many parsers for networking and application protocols for
capture applications like wireshark. In a few cases there were lots of
pushback on doing so because it was felt that the complexity of the
protocol, sequences, structure and compression contributed to its security
(security by obscurity) even though it was fully documented.

What we have are people who want to "see all" without having to do a
protocol analysis. They want someone else to do the heavy lifting and make
it easy.

Part 97 says nothing about easy, just that the meaning isn't intentionally
being encrypted.

Additionally it also doesn't say that it needs to be "readable" by all
hams, really that it just needs to be readable by the fcc. If the fcc
wanted to monitor winmor they can do so, it's documented

Chris
K6RWJ

1c 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25271-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzNTVqOXBsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI3MQRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjgyNDAw&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=5BQnABgaOc0WcrI4f3Z4yWWZaRZyjXEbpd5IfOCC1fk&e=>  

Wed Sep 7, 2016 8:51 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:w6ids at frontier.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "W6IDS" w6ids2003 

AHHH! Some fresh air. . . . .. thank you Sir.

Howard W6IDS
Richmond, IN

2 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? END OF THREAD please <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25266-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzbnA2ZTBiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTI2NgRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczMjgyNDAw&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=Olw0nzV4Qeu6J2SQWeJIlKyX_v5N17yipTC-oaqrgEU&e=>  

Wed Sep 7, 2016 5:30 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:tomw at ecpi.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F%20END%20OF%20THREAD%20please> "Tom Whiteside" n5tw 

Thanks for the comments on this but let?s move on to other topics. END OF THREAD.

Tom N5TW

2a 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25357-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzODhkaWFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTM1NwRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczNTc4ODYx&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=VnJ8LoBX6007egIUgbzvNW622cvTDuWiNLylBsO0b4s&e=>  

Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:23 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 

steve_k6eta <mailto:k6eta at comcast.net?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  

Thanks and understood. 

OK, so if we read Part 97 to mean that the FCC, not all hams and SWL stations, should be able to monitor the traffic, I can see how the burden is lifted for encoding software (binary, PACTOR, WINMOR, etc) to provide a general means for monitoring. It's published and the FCC could monitor if they wish. I agree with this logic. 

So then my request becomes something more like, "gee, it sure would be nice to have someone write software that could be used to monitor such traffic..." and again, I agree that is simply a request thrown out there. 

But what I hope is obvious is that this isn't just a personal request for the convenience of just a one or a few stations. Hopefully everyone can see how this would benefit the quality and security of our allocated band spectra in an era where the FCC is scaling back on enforcement? 

Thanks everyone, 
Steve K6ETA 





1a 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25359-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzMGR0aWFuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTM1OQRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDczNjQzNDk1&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=xcXE2wrSmD1l8ryIEsQiOCfvr-_wdzxworqch_NnpdY&e=>  

Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:14 am (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:rmuething at cfl.rr.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "Rick Muething" kn6kb 

Steve (K6ETA),

The problem of monitoring ARQ transmissions is a technical one...not 
just software. If two stations are connected in an ARQ session 
forwarding messages each has the ability to request a repeat of a data 
frame (through the ARQ mechanism) until it gets a proper frame decode. 
This is the basic mechanism that all ARQ systems (and BBSs that use ARQ) 
work. It applies to Pactor, WINMOR, the new ARDOP in development etc.

Also Winlink and other BBS systems often use binary encoded compression. 
This takes a simple text message (or attached text or other file) and 
compressed it (something like ZIP) for transmission. This can save 
typically 50% on text messages and more (or less) on other file types. 
But if just one byte of the compressed message is not received correctly 
it is impossible (well at least VERY difficult) to decompress the 
message and get the original text or compressed files. A station 
monitoring such a transmission would have to receive EVERY ARQ frame 
perfectly without being able to request a repeat from the sending 
station. (ARQ occurs only between the TWO connected 
stations...monitoring stations can't request a repeat)

So while it is technically feasible to monitor and decode (there is no 
encryption of the message ...that is illegal on ham frequencies) it is 
extremely difficult to recover a message completely by just monitoring. 
With a lot of work and fancy software it might be possible to recover 
parts of a message that is compressed but that is not very practical and 
would require some tricky software (decompression with missing data) to 
get anything.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

73,
Rick Muething, KN6KB Winlink developer and author of WINMOR and ARDOP

 

3a 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25823-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzNTY4OXNhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTgyMwRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDc3MTIxMTMz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=W7SwHdeewxHB981OwSR5CvQSwjXJeD4VfQwz2XEUoOY&e=>  

Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:19 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 

steve_k6eta <mailto:k6eta at comcast.net?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F>  

Hi Rick, 

Understood. As with any monitoring process, some info will certainly be lost due to condx. I wasn't hoping to reconstruct partially rx'd frames, just the ability to decode fully copied ones... 

Again, many thanks for your development efforts - I'm enjoying ARDOP Chat and can't wait to see ARDOP released on Winlink Express! My RMS will finally be 100% low-power once I can get rid of the Windows hogs! Even the Windows tablet I have for WINMOR (everything else is RPi) is a drag on my solar powered batteries... 

ARDOP is a godsend! 

-Steve K6ETA 

 

3b 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25824-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzcTdhMnBtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTgyNARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDc3MTIxMTMz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=Kvnjgh0Wgs8ysBRWsX5oG9zJDEaRTuOBm0Sn30I94KI&e=>  

Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:54 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:ke6rwj at gmail.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "Christopher Story" radionerds 

Rick is quite right regarding the difficulty is assembling error correcting
transmissions.. about 20 years ago i wrote a "man in the middle" monitoring
application for a proprietary data transfer protocol.

It was difficult to say the least and we were using perfect capture files,
where data fidelity is 100% from the monitoring applications perspective.

With an over the air protocol you have that plus transmission path issues.

I shutter thinking about re-assembling that.

Someone would need to open their checkbook with at least a 50% deposit to
start..

Chris STORY
K6RWJ

3c 

Re: Monitoring WINMOR traffic? <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.yahoo.com_neo_groups_Winlink-5FPrograms-5FGroup_conversations_topics_25830-3B-5Fylc-3DX3oDMTJzZDQ0cm9rBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzMyNTAyMTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MzEwOARtc2dJZAMyNTgzMARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDc3MTIxMTMz&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=qSaoohTzBW3viLO5khwm-Q&m=Nac0Oh2zllr4jB_rnu0QSvbefeaLQ77FXbYKq67Uyqo&s=cU7sc7KvM-gBJLqqUY_9ajcEpGUXXjOcB3x6YLscx5M&e=>  

Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:50 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 

 <mailto:daywalker_blade_2004 at yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20Monitoring%20WINMOR%20traffic%3F> "Matthew Pitts" daywalker_blade_2004 

Plus, with an ARQ protocol, you have to know or be able to figure out the actual data rate including any FEC, and operating bandwidth, on the fly while trying to decode it. Even having every aspect of it published it's not going to be an easy task.
Matthew PittsN8OHUCo-developer of ARDOP

 

 

 


From n4ydunate at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 20:52:09 2019
From: n4ydunate at gmail.com (Nathan Moreschi)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 20:52:09 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] N4YDU CQ VHF Contest
Message-ID: <CAODp0Y9eMmqZzXKF0wCaoLWdrLZb-xcGpKENWQ7R0voHpJPFvQ@mail.gmail.com>

 CQ Worldwide VHF Contest - 2019

Call: N4YDU
Operator(s): N4YDU
Station: N4YDU

Class: SOAB LP
QTH: NC
Operating Time (hrs): 2.5

Summary:
 Band  QSOs  Mults
-------------------
    6:  56     37
    2:
-------------------
Total:  56     37  Total Score = 2,072

Club: Potomac Valley Radio Club

Comments:

Good Es Sunday afternoon.  Thanks for the fun.

Flex 6600M
5 element yagi up 48 feet
N1MM Plus Software

73,

Nate/N4YDU

From n4cw at aol.com  Fri Jul 26 07:46:40 2019
From: n4cw at aol.com (n4cw at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:46:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [PVRCNC] Iota Participation This Weekend
References: <715287624.1799021.1564141600714.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <715287624.1799021.1564141600714@mail.yahoo.com>

This weekend the RSGB IOTA Contest is on (1200Z-1200Z, Saturday thru Sunday). W4TMO and I will be doing an "island dxpedition" to Bailey Island (NA-137) in Maine, using the call K1IMI, mostly on CW (we will entertain requests to work SSB if the going's slow).?

Other PVRC'ers will also be active from one island location or another; notably, W4MY with a cadre of fine operators plans to be active from Roanoke Island (NA-067), NY3A from Smith Island (NA-140), and WA2BCK from Hilton Head Island (NA-110). I may have missed somebody, but not intentionally!

Please listen and work us; we need all the Q's we can get.

73, Bert N4CW/K1IMI

From n4ydunate at gmail.com  Fri Jul 26 09:04:19 2019
From: n4ydunate at gmail.com (Nathan Moreschi)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 09:04:19 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] [PVRC] Iota Participation This Weekend
In-Reply-To: <715287624.1799021.1564141600714@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <715287624.1799021.1564141600714.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
	<715287624.1799021.1564141600714@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAODp0Y9JEud8qbn0zV8LWbU4tLmsv2RxmAJHkCOQvpEfhW=v9A@mail.gmail.com>

FB! Hope you guys have a blast.

Kaz, W4KAZ, will be on using his regular call from Core Banks, NC - IOTA
NA067.

73,

Nate/N4YDU

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 7:47 AM Bert N3CW via PVRC <pvrc at mailman.qth.net>
wrote:

> This weekend the RSGB IOTA Contest is on (1200Z-1200Z, Saturday thru
> Sunday). W4TMO and I will be doing an "island dxpedition" to Bailey Island
> (NA-137) in Maine, using the call K1IMI, mostly on CW (we will entertain
> requests to work SSB if the going's slow).
>
> Other PVRC'ers will also be active from one island location or another;
> notably, W4MY with a cadre of fine operators plans to be active from
> Roanoke Island (NA-067), NY3A from Smith Island (NA-140), and WA2BCK from
> Hilton Head Island (NA-110). I may have missed somebody, but not
> intentionally!
>
> Please listen and work us; we need all the Q's we can get.
>
> 73, Bert N4CW/K1IMI
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> PVRC mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/pvrc
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:PVRC at mailman.qth.net
> Message delivered to n4ydunate at gmail.com
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

From tsrwvcomm at aol.com  Fri Jul 26 11:39:07 2019
From: tsrwvcomm at aol.com (Ted)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:39:07 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] Seeking your support in this logic
Message-ID: <C8801F19-5A5D-4B92-A682-E38309B808E7@aol.com>

https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/10724035705944/NYU%20Ex%20Parte%20Filing%20-%2007.24.19.pdf


From tsrwvcomm at aol.com  Fri Jul 26 17:42:32 2019
From: tsrwvcomm at aol.com (Ted Rappaport N9NB)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 17:42:32 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] FW: [PVRC] Winlink and Ted
References: <ABA7AB18-3D64-4FBF-ACA4-57358336110F@nc.rr.com>
	<a0e392d7-ed54-48a5-bafa-104cc78b6068@email.android.com> 
Message-ID: <011701d543fb$087bc8c0$19735a40$@aol.com>

Dear all, 

 

Very kind of all of you to comment.

 

I am sensitive to those who don?t share my views or have no interest in this topic, and many are clearly tired of my emails on this subject.  I will refrain from such frequent transmissions on the topic going forward.  Thanks for the compliments from several of you.  The hobby needs your unending support. 

 

One thing I hope we can all agree on is this: Whether you care or not about the topic, or use Winlink or not: A bedrock principle that should guide of our hobby and the operations of our elected officials in ARRL is that of transparency, openness, integrity, and diplomacy. Our hobby was created to establish goodwill. The elected ARRL board members have an obligation, far and above rank and file hams, to be the leaders, the vanguard, the ones who spotlight and harness the visionaries who can move our hobby forward.

 

The footnotes in this extensive and recent FCC filing: 

https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/10724035705944/NYU%20Ex%20Parte%20Filing%20-%2007.24.19.pdf

lay out the legal basis of data in amateur radio, and provide what I and many top legal minds believe to be a strong legal argument to have FCC rules enforced and to end the effectively encrypted transmissions in amateur radio.

 

If you read the footnotes carefully, you see how ARSFI and Winlink have created a unique data system that gives the general public instant access to the amateur radio spectrum, without proper oversight and without knowledge to the control operator whose radio is sending those email messages.  

 

Why ARRL has continued to aggressively pursue more bandwidth or spectrum allocation for this type of service, without ever once addressing the fact that this is a closed, private network that cannot be decoded by hams in general over the air, and has no transparency on its messages BEFORE they are transmitted, is beyond my comprehension.

 

I would hope you, too, would question the actions of the ARRL board, and ask why it has continuously acted to advance the closed email network of Winlink. Why would the ARRL try and play ?kingmaker? for ARSFI/Winlink and continue to petition the FCC for more and more spectrum and privileges while continuing to ?look the other way? regarding the lack of transparency with this tiny group of developers (ARSFI). Why would ARRL leaders provide so much trust in ARSFI/Winlink, and them alone, to properly use and defend the ham spectrum? The FCC is clear that the hobby is meant to be open to ALL amateur operators.  There is no expectation of privacy, and no special provision for some users to have secret use of the spectrum or to be ?private gatekeepers.?  The hobby is meant to be completely open.

 

As discussed in this recent FCC filing, ARSFI and Winlink are showing us what they care to show us,  ?after the fact,? on the newly launched web viewer, without any transparency into their own back end network, and without over the air transparency of the transmitted signals in amateur radio. In an emergency, no one can copy the mail on the air and jump in and help, or participate in the discussion, or participate in the hobby as Part 97 instructs.  

 

This filing brings out the important fact that amateur radio was distinctly created to provide ?amateur ? to- amateur? communications, and not email to the public. It is strictly for non- hobby use and not to be used to bypass other radio services (e.g. email), in its role as a distinct service. 

 

I hope everyone, whether you use Winlink or not, can agree on the need for transparency in amateur radio.  This ex parte filing offers a very simple path forward for ARSFI and Winlink, which is easily doable for them,  and puts them on a path that allows them to operate lawfully in the ham spectrum:

 

1)      open up their over-the-air data signaling methods so that all can hear it for meaning over-the-air, just like all other data modes in the Amateur Radio Service; 

2)       open up and archive all their traffic , throughout the world,  on a web viewer,  and make sure the relay stations anywhere in the world can first read the email and verify its appropriateness BEFORE allowing it to be sent over amateur radio frequencies. 

 

As shown in this FCC filing, neither of these things happen today, but the ARSFI team is a bright group, and if motivated to do this instead of trying to find loopholes or working so hard to interpret FCC rules in a way that goes counter to the spirit and  regulations of the hobby, and instead of spending so much energy saying that these 2 simple things would end their network, they could conform in a heartbeat with no loss of service . After that, the baud rate could be dropped in favor of wider bandwidths for open data. 

 

My hope is that the ARRL board members who we elect will stand up for this position, and will work to establish openness, transparency and diplomacy.

 

My position, and we believe that of the FCC, will be that these 2 simple requirements are a critical prerequisite for Part 97 operations,  before ANY more bandwidth allocation is given for ACDS service. 

 

What remains to be seen is this: will the Winlink group and the ARRL board get behind these 2 principles and agree with the legal interpretation of this filing? 

 

Or, will there be continued rancor and battling, and more of your ARRL membership dollars burned up on pursuing more effectively encrypted data?  

 

How can the ARRL possibly argue with the legal position in this filing? Why would there be so much opposition from a small development team (ARSFI) to open up their data transmissions for over-the-air intercept, and to open up the entire back end  of their carried email messages so they are public and viewable, BEFORE a ham operator forwards them out over the air ? 

 

Like many of you, I eagerly await to see what ARRL has to say on this topic. 

 

On a personal note, I have had the benefit of personal relationships with many FCC Chairmen and many commissioners in my career, and I know they all hold the hobby of Amateur Radio in very good light, and I believe that they all would support the principles outlined in this ex parte filing. As a leader in education, I believe the tenets and positions in this filing are absolutely critical for our HF spectrum, and critical for the future of STEM in the USA, and I am very fortunate to have the strong and unending support of the entire NYU administration in pursuing this quest to have all transmissions and messages open in ham radio. We also have allocated more than $1M for a major new NYU amateur radio station on our new engineering building in Brooklyn, and are anticipating the creation of an organization that can serve as a national leader for the hobby. 

 

I am very excited about the future of our hobby, and believe that if all data can be made open for over the air decoding, and if the burden of providing openness is clearly placed on the developer of new data methods (as is being done with FT-8, FT-4, etc.), then there can be great gains and improvement in technological development in ham radio.

 

I hope that the ARRL leadership, and ARSFI, could come to see the value in adopting these simple 2 principles in their network. The hobby would win in a very big way if that happened. Do they have the will? We shall see.

 

73 ted n9nb

 

From: pvrc-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:pvrc-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Brennan Price via PVRC
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 8:52 AM
To: Jim K4QPL
Cc: pvrc at mailman.qth.net; Vic; Alan Zimmerman
Subject: Re: [PVRC] Winlink and Ted

 

While I disagree strongly with Jim's threat threat assessment for reasons I have previously stated, Ted unquestionably has credibility and achievements that transcend this issue, and amateur radio itself. 

 

I'll gladly read what he has to say anytime on any forum. 

 

73 de Brennan. N4QX

 

On Jul 22, 2019 07:28, Jim K4QPL via PVRC <pvrc at mailman.qth.net> wrote:

I agree with Steve. This is so important to amateur radio, now and in future, the real threat needs to be communicated as widely as possible and not just for those who sign up for a special group. Anyone not interested can use the ?delete? key. And meantime thanks to Ted N9NB for his ceaseless and targeted efforts to keep commercial use off of ham bands and wideband QRM from contesting spectrum. 

73,

Jim K4QPL 

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 21, 2019, at 8:30 PM, Alan Zimmerman via PVRC <pvrc at mailman.qth.net> wrote:


Concur. This thread need to end. 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 21, 2019, at 8:24 PM, Vic via PVRC <pvrc at mailman.qth.net> wrote:

I am absolutely up to my gills with this interminable winlink stuff. I don?t think it is appropriate in this degree of intrusion on this contest reflector. Can someone (with me) suggest to Eric (moderator) that it is way time to let us move on?  Apologies that this request is necessary. Contest exuberantly. 73, Vic W4VIC 

 

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com

 

73, Vic, W4VIC 

 

 

 

 

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From hhoyt at mebtel.net  Fri Jul 26 19:27:30 2019
From: hhoyt at mebtel.net (Howard Hoyt)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 19:27:30 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC]  Iota Participation This Weekend
Message-ID: <278a335d-b8a4-adaa-d72e-299470c43ce4@mebtel.net>

Good luck Bert and all!? I'll try to catch you Sunday...

Howie / WA4PSC


From n4ydu at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 28 16:11:45 2019
From: n4ydu at yahoo.com (Nathan Moreschi)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 20:11:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [PVRCNC] N4YDU IOTA
References: <2102685917.1353670.1564344705817.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2102685917.1353670.1564344705817@mail.yahoo.com>

Call: N4YDUOperator(s): N4YDU?Station: N4YDU
Class: SO(A)24Mixed HPQTH: NCOperating Time (hrs): 15?Location: World?Radios: SO2R??
Summary:? ?Compare ScoresBand CW Qs CW Mults Ph Qs Ph Mults80: 45 36 11 1040: 169 63 98 2820: 186 54 106 3115: 12 8 0 010: 0 0 0 0Total: 412 161 215 69 Total Score 1,140,570?
Club: Potomac Valley Radio Club
Comments:? ? ?[email]? ? ?2019-07-28 12:31:33Always a fun event - surprised to work several EU on 80M. Very FB conditions on 80/40 from home.
Participation seemed relatively strong.
Nice to work island travelers and? PVRC members K1IMI (N4CW and W4TMO), W4KAZ and NY3A .
Station:15M 3 element yagi up 60 feet20M 3 element yagi up 50 feet, 2 element Moxon up 50 feet40M Dipole up 65 feet, 2 element wire yagi fixed NE up 65 feet80M inverted vee up 60 feet, 1/4 vertical
Flex 6600MACOM 2000A AmplifierDXLOG software

73,
Nate/N4YDU


From dongladwell1 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 28 18:32:38 2019
From: dongladwell1 at gmail.com (Don Gladwell)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 18:32:38 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] FW: IOTA W4BBT SO12SSB HP
In-Reply-To: <20190728222315.1.F55D435644B0E578@b4h.net>
References: <20190728222315.1.F55D435644B0E578@b4h.net>
Message-ID: <00bd01d54594$5d001320$17003960$@gmail.com>

Not a lot of time spent on this contest.  Mostly S&P for 3.5 hours then Ran
the last hour.  The early part of the day was very quiet so I took a break
until around 23:00 UTC then quit at 02:41 UTC.  EU was strong on 40M and 20M
when I got back into the contest. 

Don/W4BBT

-----Original Message-----
From: webform at b4h.net [mailto:webform at b4h.net] 
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2019 6:23 PM
To: 3830 at contesting.com; dongladwell1 at gmail.com
Subject: IOTA W4BBT SO12SSB HP

                    IOTA Contest - 2019

Call: W4BBT
Operator(s): W4BBT
Station: W4BBT

Class: SO12SSB HP
QTH: NC
Operating Time (hrs): 4.5

Summary:
 Band  CW Qs  CW Mults  Ph Qs  Ph Mults
----------------------------------------
   80:                              
   40:                    41      13
   20:                    20       9
   15:                              
   10:                              
----------------------------------------
Total:   0        0       61      22  Total Score = 11,836

Club: Potomac Valley Radio Club

Comments:




Posted using 3830 Score Submittal Forms at: http://www.3830scores.com/


From k2av.guy at gmail.com  Sun Jul 28 19:16:10 2019
From: k2av.guy at gmail.com (Guy Olinger K2AV)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:16:10 -0400
Subject: [PVRCNC] PVRC NC East Thursday, August 1, Manchester's
In-Reply-To: <CANckpc1PmWFMampYwhQkJ3QJD3s-ycOC+ES4Q4MkKDkcNFd2oQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANckpc2b=-xzRM8v9KiVuQ5WacWAf_u=h5+Lz8hgVSEMwEvzdg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc2KgDF9e7Usp7t1kfodu2brJsEzTTOvbwAOTYoAE3L+4w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc1p8Z=wpKJ3rAaghCCiT3jwCx-odQrTaQXnKLajrZsGYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc0D=riNhedcTCsB5cTA=0Uwr3n+He+ypoOQbLo+v8=94A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc0u1V0NyZkdtyvTrm_SL2BQjytNRBU=Knd7fn2iq8xE2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc0gNSLNNtPec9Pd-5KJT-gz-5Q9ve+FFiOZwqtBM6fk6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANckpc1PmWFMampYwhQkJ3QJD3s-ycOC+ES4Q4MkKDkcNFd2oQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANckpc2J=A2nTQqfrmS=rCKJoXH01L7OSS1NuRUkTpKCdifnfA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello PVRC and friends,

The regular first Thursday monthly meeting of the PVRC NC East chapter will
be held Thursday August 1, 2019 in the group room at Manchester's Bar and
Grille, 9101 Leesville Rd, Raleigh, NC 27613.

All are invited. Newcomers and visitors distinctly welcome. You will be
treated like you've been our friend for twenty years.

*5:15 PM*: Arrivals begin and continue throughout the meeting. Late
arrivals please sign in on the Chairman's log when you first come in.
Ordering meals will begin when someone is more interested in meals than
blather. Wait staff is used to our style.

We do it this way because some need to arrive early enough to beat one or
more of the several regular weekday interstate jam-ups. Others can't leave
early and always get caught in the jam. So latecomers are **entirely
welcome**. We've all been there and **entirely understand**. Anyone who
comes in during the round-the-table will be picked up at the end if the
round has gone past where they are sitting. Wait staff is used to our late
arrivals. We allow a 30 second embarrassing pause for anyone who gets
caught with a mouth full of Chicken Wrap when it's their turn. After 30
seconds you have to talk with your mouth full.

*6:00 PM*:  Serious, organized QRN (as opposed to blathering, meandering
QRN) usually begins with the round-the-table. Dining is any time after
5:15, shortly after you tackle one of the wait staff. Official meeting is
officially over after official round-the-table, any official program, and
the chairman runs out of official blather. The entire meeting is only over
when all the post-official-meeting stand-up meetings break up and the last
few go home. That could be anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour later.

*Points of Privilege: If Ted is there, latest on the WinLink flap and
FCC/ARRL proceedings, and what did the ARRL board decide? *

*Around the Table, *General Purpose Wails and Tales. Fish stories from
various contests, sunburn data from IOTA expeditions and other data.
Technical deportment. Scandals and bewildering burnings of electronics. And
so forth.

The totally official part of the meeting ends with the 'round the table,
but unofficially ends with the last small discussion or the establishment
closes, whichever occurs first. In fair weather, discussions may continue
into the night in the parking lot.

73, and see you there,

Guy K2AV
Chair, PVRC-NCE

[Note: high tipping ensures that the owner will suffer a severe beating by
the wait staff if he ever tries to schedule the room out from under us. If
you can't or prefer not to high tip, don't worry, nobody is looking.]

