[Premium-Rx] 3030 keypads, etc

Tue Jul 1 22:44:01 EDT 2003

John
Many thanks for the solution., good work.
73
hank wd5jfr
----- Original Message -----
From: "refmon" <monitor at referencevideo.com>
To: <premium-rx at ml.skirrow.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Premium-Rx] 3030 keypads, etc


> Hi,
>
> Points well made and I even learned a concept or two, however, I'm not
sure
> this line of exploration applies to the Cubic radios, or others, either.
> The situation on these receivers is quite different than the software
> scenario described.  Entries (keypushes) are made in a comparatively
> deliberate, slow manner.  I expect that under original specs, the front
> panel controls were mainly considered maintenance controls, as these
> receivers typically were used in remoted banks under tasking software.
> While mid 80's technology would allow sophisticated debounce and other
such
> considerations, I expect it was deliberately decided not to bother.  The
> Cubic keypad is column/row matrixed and a 74C923 keyboard encode/decode IC
> with internal debounce is used...pin 7 provides for a user-selected
damping
> cap.  Relatively crude but effective.  Actually, if I didn't have a
> 3030A...just 3030's, which don't bounce, I'd never have paid any attention
> to this aspect of the receiver;  once you have the feel, the existing
system
> works just fine.  Worthy of note is the fact that some, if not most, of us
> want to keep the receivers as true to original as is consistent with our
> usage.
>
> Particularly interesting to me is the fact that inquiries to the Cubic
> factory get a "bad keypad" diagnosis...Cubic does not have any spares, so
> doubtful that's a sales-driven thing....more likely a nice guy trying to
> help, but no docs in hand.  Also interesting is the docs indicate that rev
B
> incorporated the adjusted cap value of 10uf, but we're finding rev B
boards
> with the old cap values of 3.3uf.  Further, these keypads have buttons of
> the "oil can" variety, which are prone to be bouncy...a plain old button
> pushes in when you push it and opens when you release....these buttons, on
a
> vary small scale, fight your push...I found that the more respect I showed
> for the vintage keypads, the more they bounce.  Until the cap thing was
> discovered, a Cubic operator developed a debounced pushing finger...fast
and
> crisp...sneaks in under the 3.3uf time constant.
>
> It is always worth remembering that for most of these premium rx's, we are
> using them well outside their originally intended applications.  I
seriously
> doubt that these receivers were ever envisioned plugged into a wall outlet
> in someone's house, nor were they designed to have someone listen to them
> endlessly while trying to dig out minimum discernable signals.  These
> receivers are intended to be in computer-controlled banks receiving highly
> processed RF from large scale antenna systems.  Enclosures and facilities
> are shielded, power is processed.
>
> Anyway, problem solved...on to the next one.
>
> regards
>
> John Collins
> ______________________________________________________
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Perlick" <p at mn.rr.com>
> To: "Henry Kolesnik" <wd5jfr at oklahoma.net>; "refmon"
> <monitor at referencevideo.com>
> Cc: <premium-rx at ml.skirrow.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 04:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Premium-Rx] 3030 keypads
>
>
> > Gary G brought up some good points, for Form-C switches, and yes, you
can
> > make an excellent hardware debounce with SPDT switches.  And, he is
right,
> > no one ever makes SPDT switches in keypads or keyboards.  So you are
left
> > with software debounce.
> >
> > When I say software, I guess this really would be firmware.  In any
> > keyboard, there is a microprocessor (or microcontroller) which reads the
> > matrix keyboard switches (typically an 8051 or Z-80 or something
related).
> > The uP also serializes the data and sends it to the computer.  All the
> > computer knows is that a "C' key was pressed once.  The micro usually
> > fulfills the repeat function in the keyboard.
> >
> > In the case of keypads, which are often matrixed also (if matrixed is a
> > word), then this debounce "software" function is also usually done in
the
> > local micro.   This is not something that  you see running in DOS
> software.
> >
> > The software debounce typically does a couple of things (that are
> > accomplished MUCH more easily in software than in hardware):  First, it
> will
> > see a key closure.  It will watch to see that the key stays closed for a
> > certain amount of time (not bouncing).  THis is a noise filter--assuming
> > that you might have had a noise pulse look like a key closure, but
> typically
> > not a few consecutive reads.  If they key is closed for 3-5 consecutive
> > reads, then you assume you have a valid key hit.  Then you start a
second
> > read sequence to see that the key is opened within a certain time.  If
> not,
> > then you assume you want multiple characters.  And, finally, when you
> > finally do read an open on the key read, you assume that the key is open
> and
> > you ignore any possible closure for a short interval (this is the actual
> > debounce).  So, keypad/keyboard debouncing is not trivial, and best done
> in
> > firmware.  Yes, software can lock up or screw up (my keyboard does once
a
> > year or so) so you have to deal with that.  On the other hand, it is
much
> > more immune to noise this way.  Fast is really not the point...even with
a
> 4
> > MHz clock (typical for most keyboards) you can do all of this debouncing
> > MUCH faster than anyones  fingers can move!  So, fast hardware gets you
> > nothing because all you are doing is slowing down fast hardware for
noise
> > immunity.  I do like the last comment....I'd love to bounce...just not
on
> my
> > keyboard.
> >
> > John
> > K0UM
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Henry Kolesnik" <wd5jfr at oklahoma.net>
> > To: "John Perlick" <p at mn.rr.com>; "refmon" <monitor at referencevideo.com>
> > Cc: <premium-rx at ml.skirrow.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 4:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Premium-Rx] 3030 keypads
> >
> >
> > > I may be a off on this but I would think a hardware debounce would be
> much
> > > more effective than software debounce because:
> > > 1. it's a hardware feature that's not wanted or a malfunction..
> > > 2. hardware would be faster!
> > > 3. firmware would be the second choice..
> > > 4. don't waste software doing something that easily done in hardware
> > unless
> > > you've got the resources and may need bounce later..
> > > 5. when would anyone want bounce or the ability to control it in
> software?
> > >
> > > tnx
> > > 73
> > > hank wd5jfr
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "John Perlick" <p at mn.rr.com>
> > > To: "Henry Kolesnik" <wd5jfr at oklahoma.net>; "refmon"
> > > <monitor at referencevideo.com>
> > > Cc: <premium-rx at ml.skirrow.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 2:22 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Premium-Rx] 3030 keypads
> > >
> > >
> > > > Keypad debouncing is best done in software...
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Henry Kolesnik" <wd5jfr at oklahoma.net>
> > > > To: "refmon" <monitor at referencevideo.com>
> > > > Cc: <premium-rx at ml.skirrow.org>
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:36 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Premium-Rx] 3030 keypads
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > John
> > > > > That sounds like a great idea.  I've done a bit of snooping and if
I
> > > read
> > > > it
> > > > > right Cubic uses Grayhill 88JB2 which is available from Digi-Key
for
> > > > $27.74.
> > > > > I wonder if anyone can confirm this number as I would like to have
> > > > > bounceless keypads on my A model.
> > > > > 73
> > > > > hank wd5jfr
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "refmon" <monitor at referencevideo.com>
> > > > > To: "Carcia, Frank A. HS" <francis.carcia at hs.utc.com>; "'Herschel
> > > > > McCullough'" <w5mc at austin.rr.com>; "Al Klase"
> <skywaves at bw.webex.net>
> > > > > Cc: <premium-rx at ml.skirrow.org>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:30 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Premium-Rx] 3030 keypads
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Frank et al,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As far as I can determine, all the keypad switch assy's are the
> > > > > same...it's
> > > > > > the overlay and firmware that varies by model & options.  I know
> you
> > > > have
> > > > > a
> > > > > > few other models...I can't speak for them, but do any of the
keys
> on
> > > > 3512,
> > > > > > etc bounce?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I still find it highly suspect that all 3030A's so far have
baggy
> > > > overlays
> > > > > > and bouncy switches....all 3030's have firm overlays and no
> bounce.
> > > > > Before
> > > > > > everyone runs out and buys new switches, let's figure out if all
> the
> > > > > 3030A's
> > > > > > have bad keypads or if they're simply not debounced.  As a
start,
> I
> > > will
> > > > > > pour through my manuals .. failing an answer there, I'll check
> panel
> > > > > > interfaces between 3030A and 3030, including PC board # and rev.
> If
> > > > > > everything there is the same, I'll swap a known-good keypad,
which
> > is
> > > a
> > > > > ton
> > > > > > of work, and see if that makes a difference.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John Collins
> > > > > > ________________________________________________
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Carcia, Frank A. HS" <francis.carcia at hs.utc.com>
> > > > > > To: "'Herschel McCullough'" <w5mc at austin.rr.com>; "Al Klase"
> > > > > > <skywaves at bw.webex.net>
> > > > > > Cc: <premium-rx at ml.skirrow.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 06:13 AM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [Premium-Rx] 3030 keypads
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have found a number of different key pad covers going
through
> > the
> > > > > Cubic
> > > > > > > stash. I
> > > > > > > have not found a perfect match for the 3030 yet but have some
> > close
> > > > > ones.
> > > > > > > They appear
> > > > > > > to just have a backing that peals off then the pad sticks on
the
> > > front
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the panel.
> > > > > > > They appear to have no effect on bounce just a simple
membrane.
> I
> > > will
> > > > > > look
> > > > > > > for switches
> > > > > > > if someone can give me a part number or an idea of what they
> look
> > > > like.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > found a number of
> > > > > > > push buttons but have not looked into the configuration.
fc
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Herschel McCullough [mailto:w5mc at austin.rr.com]
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 11:09 AM
> > > > > > > To: Al Klase
> > > > > > > Cc: premium-rx at ml.skirrow.org
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Premium-Rx] 3030 keypads
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Al, John, etal. as I see my 2 key pads,  the front printed
> > membrane
> > > > has
> > > > > > > become  " de-laminated "  my words.. away somewhat from the
> button
> > > > > > surface,
> > > > > > > and if I rub this face it will for a short time STICK back as
it
> > > > should,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > the button action seems good to fair in feel and proper
> responses
> > > > during
> > > > > > > this time..  but after a short time the membrane face comes
away
> > and
> > > > > then
> > > > > > > when you actuate a key / button it typically will take 2
efforts
> > to
> > > > get
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > proper response..  a new key pad I think would make these
false
> > > > > conditions
> > > > > > > go away.. I would as a personal preference prefer more
response
> or
> > > > > > positive
> > > > > > > action when a keypad action is iniated. this is just a
personal
> > > want..
> > > > > > > albeit false, in my mind I am making a more positive command
> > request
> > > > and
> > > > > > > report..  this might very well be available as a part of
> replacing
> > > > these
> > > > > > > pads with new ones that we might order..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John compares the keypads between a 3030 and a 3030a  ..  and
> true
> > > to
> > > > > his
> > > > > > > findings, my unit is a 3030a and has the bubbly or mushy pad
> > faces..
> > > > my
> > > > > > > hour readings indicate on the left unit 4456 and the right
unit
> > > 7104..
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > often think about disconnecting these meters , during quite
> times
> > or
> > > > low
> > > > > > > volume, the constant  " Ticking " or pulse action of the
meters
> > > annoys
> > > > > me
> > > > > > > somewhat..but I haven't done it yet..  All of my modules are
> > sealed
> > > > and
> > > > > > > unbroken..  S/Ns between the same modules are not all that
> close..
> > > not
> > > > > > using
> > > > > > > my sig generator, but using the same signal source and feeding
> > both
> > > > > units
> > > > > > > thru my Stridsberg coupler, all readings are very similar, not
a
> > > > > > noticeable
> > > > > > > or visible difference in meter or audio actions.. Back to the
> > > original
> > > > > > > problem.. I hung [ Texanise ] suspended the front control
panel
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ceiling and overshifted the operating positions, the receivers
> > both
> > > > > > respond,
> > > > > > > the audio board or pin and wiring is the area where my problem
> > is..
> > > I
> > > > > > > overshifted the control panel both ways and the fault tracked
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > right
> > > > > > > control section.. I used  # 12  romex conductors to jumper
power
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > respective receiver that I was testing..   so I never got into
> > > > swapping
> > > > > > > modules , as you know and I found out, the audio driver board
is
> > > > mounted
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the back of the front control panel.. When I re- assemble this
> ..
> > I
> > > > will
> > > > > > > swap audio boards, that will pretty much be the final test to
> > > isolate
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > fault.. I have however looked very close at the brown @$%^
> > > connectors
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > each units wiring seems in order..  but I got into the keypad
> area
> > > and
> > > > > now
> > > > > > > have 198 parts spewed around that will need re-assembly before
I
> > can
> > > > > > resume
> > > > > > > testing for the original problem..
> > > > > > > I followed last weeks keypad discussion with keen interest, so
> it
> > > just
> > > > > > > seemed like I was already in that area and partially apart ,
to
> > just
> > > > go
> > > > > > > ahead and explore this keypad issue, and try and find a
solution
> > > while
> > > > I
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > at it..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All feedback or other 3030a issues will be greatly welcomed,
but
> > > this
> > > > > > pretty
> > > > > > > much concludes my 3030A report till Monday sometime after
> talking
> > > with
> > > > > > > someone at Grayhill about replacement keypads.. thanx for the
> > > > bandwidth
> > > > > > > 73  mac/mc  w5mc
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Al Klase" <skywaves at bw.webex.net>
> > > > > > > To: "Herschel McCullough" <w5mc at austin.rr.com>
> > > > > > > Cc: <premium-rx at ml.skirrow.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 5:53 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Premium-Rx] 3030 keypads
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do we know for sure that it's the keypads causing the
> > > > > > > > problem rather than lack of proper de-bouncing in the
> > > > > > > > electronics?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Al
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Herschel McCullough wrote:
> > > > > > > > > The Grayhill web site still shows this style that is used
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > 3030
> > > > > > > > > ..  some others of you might check it out as well and see
> what
> > I
> > > > > might
> > > > > > [
> > > > > > > > > very likely ] be overlooking and lets discuss and decide
how
> > to
> > > go
> > > > > > > > > forward..
> > > > > > > > > and then we say goodbye to the " bubbly "  keypads..  one
> > stroke
> > > > > > actions
> > > > > > > > > will come back to us 3030 drivers..  mac/mc
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Located 46 Miles due North of the Alamo
> > > > > > > > > and 121 Miles due South of the Western White House
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Premium-Rx Mailing List
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> > > > > > > > > For Info:
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Al Klase - N3FRQ
> > > > > > > > skywaves at bw.webex.net
> > > > > > > > Flemington, NJ 08822
> > > > > > > > Web Page:  http://www.webex.net/~skywaves/home.htm
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >
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