[PPRAANet] Waldo Canyon Fire info
Dick-W0RAA
dickt at w0raa.com
Mon Jul 1 19:02:19 EDT 2013
Well said, Mike.
Dick w0raa
My memory isn't as good as it used to be.
Also, my memory isn't as good as it used to be.
On Jul 1, 2013, at 4:55 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu at w0mu.com> wrote:
> As a Volunteer Professional FF that has seen plenty of Wildland Interface fires in Montana I thought I would add my perspective.
>
> We train for fires like this the best we can and when they rear up like they did in the Waldo Canyon Fire or the Yarnell fire in Az which just killed 18/19 brave Fireman, it is not a place that you want to be. It is not a place we as Fireman want to be either. Even the most experienced FF find themselves in very bad places in a matter of moments.
>
> This will sound very harsh but houses, trees or landscaping is NOT worth the life of one person be it a FF or a resident. All that material stuff can be replaced. Lives cannot.
>
> Home owners expect Firemen to protect their properties when the home owners have done little to aid in the protection of their homes. They have failed to remove their cedar shakes, they have wood piles next to the house, they have dry vegetation next to their homes, under their decks are filled with all sorts of debris what will easily burn, they have inches upon inches of pine needles or duff or pine straw around there property. If you live in urban/wildland interface area, which most of us do, you need to limb up your trees and provide a reasonable defensible or better yet survivable space around your home. Your local FD will be happy to come out and audit your property.
>
> The truth of the matter is that some homes are too dangerous to defend safely. It is unfortunate that is took so long for help to arrive after the call for help in the Waldo Canyon fire. The question is was it safe for resources to enter the area and were there resources available? I would say the answer to both of those questions is no. Fighting fire is dangerous in the daylight and far more dangerous at night. We usually expect fires to calm down during the night when the temperatures cool and the humidity rises, this does not always happen and fire creates its own weather. The unit that was in the area of the homes might have been able to skirt the brunt of the fire front or was in a protected area which allowed them to be where they were safely. We just don't know all the facts to make logical conclusions about this specific question.
>
> The reason we evacuate people is that your safety is paramount. If you are not in the area then we do not have to worry about or even waste time thinking about that guy down the street that didn't leave. Visibility is nearly zero in the middle of a raging fire. If you are gone we do not need to worry about running into you vehicle or your person running up the road because you decided at the last minute to leave.
>
> If you lived in the area that burned what exactly do you think you might have been able to do after the fire front passed? The electricity was turned off, you may or may not have had water, you probably do not have protective gear to fight fire safely. What ends up happening is you end up being in a really bad place and now you need to be rescued, so FF that were fighting fire now have to go save your life. Your house is going to fill up with think smoke, it is going to get very warm inside and frankly I don't think most people are ready to handle what will take place. When fires run very fast sometimes we tell residents that they are going to have to shelter in place, in the home, until the fire passes because if you are outside or in a vehicle, chances are you will not survive.
>
> Wood decks are big reason homes burn down along with shake shingles. Embers are blown onto the deck or under the deck which ignites all the duff and trash that most people have under them, the deck starts on fire and then it moves into the house. Foam works great for a very short period of time. There are some gels that offer more protection that allow you to spray them on before the fire gets close so you can leave in safety. Evacuate early, turn your sprinklers on the most exposed side of your house or deck and hope for the best.
>
> By law you do not have to leave your property, if you have kids the Police could intervene for their safety, you should discuss this with your local law enforcement. Once you do leave they do not have to let you back in until they determine it is safe.
>
> You as home owners should be doing all the mitigation long before the fire hits. It is hard work and will take more time than you think to do it properly. If you have time before you evacuate, move anything that can burn off your decks, this would be furniture, plants, etc. take your propane tanks, fuel tanks, etc and move them far away from the house in a clearing if possible. If you have heavy curtains close them. If you have sheers or very light material on your windows pull them down as they can start on fire very quickly. Leave a note on the door that you left with a list of people that you took with you.
>
> If you live in these areas you should have bags packed with your valuables, important papers etc ready to be grabbed at a moments notice. You will not have much time to gather what is important to you and it will take much longer than you think it will especially if you have children and pets.
>
> We Firefighters never want to lose a house and we take it personally when we do so it is not like we don't care. Mother nature is unstoppable when she wants to be and we have little power to stop her when she gets rolling. We have been very lucky that more people were not killed or injured in the Black Forest or Waldo Canyon fires.
>
> Be safe and do yourself a favor and if you can get out before you HAVE to evacuate. You do not want to get stuck in 2 to 5 hour traffic jams trying to get out of your neighborhoods.
>
>
> Mike W0MU
>
> On 7/1/2013 2:54 PM, Dick-W0RAA wrote:
>> The firefighters are professional. If they suggest mandatory evacuation you'd be smart to evacuate the area. But it's your life and your property. So, if you think you know all about it, then stay and take the risk. Hopefully you will survive, but if not, we can all say he was a nice guy.
>>
>> Dick
>> My memory isn't as good as it used to be.
>> Also, my memory isn't as good as it used to be.
>>
>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 2:19 PM, Mick Sparling <mickspa at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I was listening to Internet "scanner radio" about 2:00 AM when the fire went through the Flying W Ranch and was baring down on Mountain Shadows. What I heard really bothered me! A fire fighter, on the scene, asked for assistance saying "...this fire is going to take all these homes, one-at-a-time, unless we get some resources here..." But none were forthcoming until much later when the whole place was ablaze. ...I heard it with my own ears!
>>>
>>> This may sound cynical, but, sorry, it's just the way I see it:
>>> If you evacuate (Mandatory Evacuation), then they watch your house burn. If you don't, then they try to save you by saving your home in the process.
>>> Sorry again, but screw mandatory evacuation! I'm NOT leaving my home until I see flames on my property. It seems like the wooden decks fire up first, then the fire gets sucked up into the attic through the ventilation ducts or starts burning it from the outside. Spraying water on the deck to cool it down and plugging the attic ducts and doing all the fire mitigation stuff (like getting high grass, wood and pine needles away from the house would help, but I'm looking into DIY foam (so much better than water).
>>>
>>> I guess high winds trump all, but this Mandatory Evacuation thing really sucks and puts whole neighborhoods in jeopardy by diverting resources away when there's still stuff we can do, ourself, to protect our homes!
>>>
>>> I suppose this anti-mandatory evacuation idea might piss-off the professionals, but, like I said, I heard it with my own ears!
>>> Your thoughts and comments are welcomed.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/26/2013 7:21 PM, DickT-W0RAA wrote:
>>>> Thanks for all that information, Paul. Interesting reading.
>>>>
>>>> Dick
>>>> W0RAA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Signorelli" <w0rw1 at msn.com>
>>>> To: "PPRAA" <ppraanet at mailman.qth.net>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 4:48 PM
>>>> Subject: [PPRAANet] Waldo Canyon Fire info
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In case you missed my previous email here are some details about the Waldo Canyon fire:
>>>>> It started 1 Year ago. 28-29 June 2012.
>>>>> Paul w0rw
>>>>> -------
>>>>> i live about 7
>>>>> miles away from the fire.
>>>>>
>>>>> i was driving on Highway 24 a few hours after
>>>>> it started, pretty scary...It had
>>>>> a big mushroom cloud at first.
>>>>> The
>>>>> side of Highway 24 is now charred in a few places but the fire damage
>>>>> isn't
>>>>> really too noticeable.
>>>>> If the fire had jumped Highway 24 (Also
>>>>> known as the Ute Pass) it would have
>>>>> gone up the north side of Pikes
>>>>> Peak.
>>>>> When they could not stop the fire from Queens canyon, with the wind
>>>>> conditions,
>>>>> it got over the top of the last ridge and down into
>>>>> COS.
>>>>> The winds were from thunder storm outflow winds, not like the Santa
>>>>> Ana Winds
>>>>> that last for weeks.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have never been around a
>>>>> fire like this, here is what happens:
>>>>> The local fire departments were
>>>>> first to hike into the fire.
>>>>> Waldo Canyon is a popular hiking trail that
>>>>> runs 3 miles back into the hills
>>>>> from Highway 24 just west of Manitou
>>>>> Springs, CO.
>>>>>
>>>>> When i went by the Canyon the USFS already had about 20
>>>>> trucks there at the
>>>>> trail head.
>>>>>
>>>>> The USFS sends a spotter plane in to
>>>>> direct all the fire fighting efforts.
>>>>> This plane is called "Waldo Air
>>>>> Attack".
>>>>> They set up at TFR (Temporary Flight Restriction) air perimeter
>>>>> and no other
>>>>> aircraft are allowed to enter without approval.
>>>>> The
>>>>> Incident Commander sets a map perimeter around the fire (Assigning sectors
>>>>> A
>>>>> through Z, clockwise around the fire) and then assigns Division
>>>>> Chiefs
>>>>> to each each sector.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Air Attack" orbits the fire at around
>>>>> 1000 feet above the fire and directs all
>>>>> the other aircraft into the fire and
>>>>> relays ground support requests.
>>>>> He is the air traffic controller for the
>>>>> fire zone.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Waldo Fire had about 10 choppers flying around one
>>>>> day.
>>>>>
>>>>> When they need slurry Bombers they send in another "Lead"
>>>>> plane.
>>>>> The "Lead" plane orbits 500 feet below "Air Attack" and He (or She -
>>>>> Great job
>>>>> Mary) becomes the flight controller for the Bombers.
>>>>>
>>>>> The
>>>>> "Air Attack" assigns the slurry targets and the "Lead" plane will guide
>>>>> the
>>>>> bombers into the target.
>>>>> Many of the Bomber pilots have never seen
>>>>> the terrain so the "Lead" plane will
>>>>> make a first pass run at the
>>>>> target.
>>>>> This is called a "Show Me" pass and He sprays a little water or
>>>>> smoke so the
>>>>> bomber can see the exact drop target.
>>>>>
>>>>> This BLM Procedure
>>>>> is at
>>>>> <http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/nifc/directives.Par.58885.File.dat/i\
>>>>> mof&a2003008a1.pdf>
>>>>>
>>>>> The
>>>>> "Air Attack" must clear all of the guys on the ground out of the target
>>>>> zone
>>>>> and He keeps all of the choppers about 2 miles away.
>>>>> He tells all
>>>>> aircraft what is happening so they don't have any collisions.
>>>>> When the
>>>>> Bombers are returning to base for reloading, the "Lead" plane calls in
>>>>> the
>>>>> bucket drops to reduce the smoke over the target so the
>>>>> Bombers can see
>>>>> the target.
>>>>> Most of the Bombers fly at 120 Knots during the drop and they
>>>>> accelerated
>>>>> during the drop as they loose mass..
>>>>>
>>>>> We had 4 MAFF's
>>>>> (Military C130's) assigned to the fire also. They are like big
>>>>> spray paint
>>>>> canisters. They can make up to a quarter mile splash
>>>>> and vary the spay
>>>>> width. They lost #7 in South Dakota.
>>>>>
>>>>> The "Air Attack" has a pilot
>>>>> and a Fire Boss. The Fire Boss is directing the
>>>>> Fire Suppression Operations
>>>>> and working 2 radios with 3 frequencies each..
>>>>> He has to control all the
>>>>> choppers on VHF AM and all the aircraft on VHF FM.
>>>>> He gets them assigned
>>>>> to a division and then switches the to a secondary air to
>>>>> ground frequency or
>>>>> hands them off to the "Lead" plane for slurry drops.
>>>>> "Air Attack" is
>>>>> usually orbiting over the fire zone for 12 hours in 3 or 4
>>>>> shifts.
>>>>> The
>>>>> "Lead" plane is a usually a single seat plane.
>>>>>
>>>>> The guys on the ground
>>>>> work 12 hours on and 12 hours off. We had around 1500
>>>>> fire fighters here but
>>>>> now moved on.
>>>>>
>>>>> The community really
>>>>> appreciated the work of the fire fighters. Several
>>>>> restaurants have signs
>>>>> reading "Free Hamburgers for Firefighters".
>>>>>
>>>>> i did a little fire work in
>>>>> the past.
>>>>> See CQ Mag. June 2010, p.60-63.
>>>>> i even spent the night in a
>>>>> 'Spike Camp'.
>>>>> You can see a live picture of the fire area from the top of
>>>>> Pikes Peak at
>>>>> <http://www.cograilway.com/Summit/WeatheratSummitB.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>> The
>>>>> Waldo Canyon Fire map and additional fire information and videos can be
>>>>> found
>>>>> at:
>>>>> <http://www.inciweb.org/>
>>>>> and
>>>>> <http://springsgov.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W0RW
>>>>>
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