[NLRS] RE: [Mw] RE:10GHz liaison Cell Phones

Sun, 01 Sep 2002 20:50:18 -0500

Donn Baker wrote:
> 
> And THAT is the problem!
> 
> The RULES say one thing, and those who are supposed to enforce the
> rules say something different.
> ...
> The MINIMUM that has to happen to get things back where the rules are
> (at least consistent, and hopefully) fair, is to change the 10GHz and
> up Contest rules similar to this:
> 
> 5.1 Scheduling of contacts is both permissable and encouraged.  ANY
> MEANS AVAILABLE TO SCHEDULE CONTACTS MAY BE USED.

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Donn.  In fact, I agree so strongly
that I was considering drafting a re-write of the rules myself, and
sending them in for the Contest Branch to deliberate over.  There are
just too many ambiguities and "private interpretations" for my taste.

Not to fan the flames, but just to show another glimpse at the
problem, I will also share some email I had with the Contest Branch.
After my earlier post to Chris' message about coordination and the
replies that were started by that thread, I wrote to them to ask
a few specific questions.  Concerning coordination/solicitation, I
wrote:

> First, from the VHF and up rules:
> 
>   1.7.2. Contest entrants may not transmit on repeaters or 
>   repeater frequencies for the purpose of soliciting contacts.
> 
> Is there a distinction between "soliciting contacts" and "coordinating
> contacts" (or "liason of contacts")?  There has been some local debate
> about this.  If two operators make a valid QSO from locations A and B,
> and the first operator (still on 10 GHz) says "I'm going to location C
> next, I'll call for you in 30 minutes", the sched has been set up on
> 10 GHz without the help of a repeater.  But 30 minutes later, if the
> two operators want to converse through a repeater to say, "I've
> arrived at site C, start sending and I will peak on your signal", is
> that OK?  It's not a solicitation (announcing on a repeater that
> so-and-so is looking for contacts for the contest, which I would
> absolutely abhor), it's just a brief liason (which I am still a little
> uneasy about, and have NOT done, but which some people think is OK).

The reply I got back was:

> It is permissible to coordinate contacts using other frequencies.
> If you are monitoring one of the contact frequencies and make a
> schedule with a station that you hear on it, that is also
> permissible.

Unfortunately, the reply SAYS nothing about my specific question
about using REPEATERS, but the IMPLICATION is that either (a) it
is OK, or (b) the question was not fully understood.

I've been working so many extra hours that I was a week behind in
reading mail, just got caught up tonight.  What with the volume of
traffic stirred up on this topic, I was motivated to reply to
Dan's reply above with another question.  If the answer is any
clearer, I will share it.  But as Donn points out, that is nearly
irrelevant.  The only thing that one can REALLY point to is the
PUBLISHED RULES, and not a private interpretation that is only
seen by a few folks.  And my reading of the PUBLISHED RULES is
the same as when I replied to Chris before the first weekend,
the same as Donn's.  So, as always, I plan to abide by the
published rules according to my good-faith best interpretation of
what they seem to say.

Oh well!  On to other issues!  Have any of the locals decided on
whether or not to take a run to the Lake Superior shoreline for
the second weekend?  I might want to come along.

And watch the NLRS web pages for more updates!
  http://www.nlrs.org

73 de KB0ZEV

> 
> At 15:57 29-08-02 -0400, John Allen wrote:
> >==>> Cell phones ARE allowed in the 10GHz and up contest. <<==
> >
> >The source for my information was ARRL Contest Branch Manager Dan
> Henderson, N1ND.
> >
> >John Allen K1AE
> >[email protected]
> >978 779-6189
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
> >> Behalf Of Russ Pillsbury
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 9:53 PM
> >> To: Donn Baker; John Allen; [email protected]
> >> Cc: [email protected]
> >> Subject: RE: [Mw] RE:10GHz liaison (LONG)
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Don. Maybe I got it wrong, but I thought those rules were
> >> relaxed for the 10 Ghz contest.  I don't have time right now to
> >> try to find the info, maybe someone else knows...
> >>
> >> Also, It seems that finding out where a station is, so you can
> >> point your 2 meter beam at him to make a sked should be able to
> >> be done via any means.  Since you are not really exchanging
> >> contact information, or even sked information, what is wrong with
> >> looking at a list of stations and where they currently are, so you
> >> can figure out where to point?
> >>
> >> Now before everyone starts jumping up and down, I am not talking
> >> about VHF contests, just the 10 Ghz and up cumulative, and day to
> >> day rover operations (non contest).
> >>
> >> Using APRS to keep track of the rovers is in no way part of
> >> actually making the QSO.  And the current situation with regards
> >> to 10 Ghz rovers is such that any real distance attempts are
> >> haphazard at best.  When I was operating in FN02, even with a KW
> >> and a beam on a mountain top. it was almost impossible to attract
> >> the attention of the New England mountain toppers on 2 meters
> >> because they all point at each other and they all have small 
> >> antennas.  That is great for them, but discourages everyone out of
> >> the area.  If the rules won't allow some better form of liaison
> >> communication during the contest then maybe the rules need to be
> >> changed.  Rules are there for fairness, but when they start
> >> impeding the ability of stations to participate reasonably then
> >> something needs to be done.
> >>
> >> 73, Russ K2TXB
> >>
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
> >> > Behalf Of Donn Baker
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 8:20 PM
> >> > To: John Allen; [email protected]
> >> > Cc: [email protected]
> >> > Subject: [Mw] RE:10GHz liaison (LONG)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >Speaking of liason,
> >> > >
> >> > >==>> Why not use cell phones (assumeing coverage)?  <<==
> >> > >
> >> > >It is allowed during the 10G and up contest.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > NO, it isn't.
> >> >
> >> > I've been on vacation, and getting caught up (and reading this
> >> > thread) has been interesting.  There've been a bunch of good
> >> > ideas passed around.  And, I'm afraid, a couple of stinkers.
> >> >
> >> > Hasn't anyone bothered to READ THE RULES ?
> >> >
> >> > Quoting from from the ARRL web pages, here are some rules that
> >> > need to be understood.
> >> >
> >> > FROM: General Rules for All ARRL Contests:
> >> > 1.1 Rules for individual contests or events, including Field
> >> > Day, take precedence over all General Rules.
> >> >
> >> > 1.2 General Rules for HF and VHF contests take precedence over
> >> > General Rules for all contests.
> >> >
> >> > 3.9 Contacts made through repeaters, digipeaters, or gateways
> >> > are not permitted.
> >> >
> >> > 3.9.1 This applies to all forms of active relays or repeaters.
> >> >
> >> > 3.10 The use of non-Amateur Radio means of communication (for
> >> > example, Internet or telephone) to solicit a contact (or
> >> > contacts) during the contest period is not permitted.
> >> >
> >> > FROM: General Rules for ARRL Contest on Bands Above 50 MHz.
> >> > 1.7 Retransmitting either or both stations, or use of repeater
> >> > frequencies, is not permitted.
> >> >
> >> > 1.7.1 This prohibits the use of all repeater frequencies.
> >> >
> >> > 1.7.2 Contest entrants may not transmit on repeaters or repeater
> >> > frequencies for the purpose of soliciting contacts.
> >> >
> >> > FROM: 2002 ARRL 10GHz and Up Cumulative Contest Rules.
> >> > 5.1 Scheduling contacts is both permissible and encouraged.
> >> >
> >> > 7.1 Schedules may be set up by use of the HF calling frequency
> >> > of 3818 kHz on the evenings of Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday
> >> > before the contest weekends starting at 7PM local.  Also,
> >> > 144.230 and 146.55 MHz can be monitored during the contest to
> >> > arrange schedules with other stations.  Paired stations should
> >> > move off these frequencies once contact has been made.
> >> >
> >> > 10.Other: See "General Rules for All ARRL Contests" and "Rules
> >> > for ARRL Contests above 50 MHz" in November 2000 QST or at
> >> > www.arrl.org/contests
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > There isn't a lot of wiggle-room here, is there ?
> >> >
> >> > NO REPEATERS: (no biggie; everyone understands this one);
> >> > NO TELEPHONE NOR INTERNET; (what about in the VHF contests?  The
> >> > General Rules Above 50MHz explicitly prohibit this for Single
> >> > Operator class, but what about others?  Isn't it covered in
> >> > General Rules for All Contests 3.10 ?)
> >> > NO DIGIPEATERS: (True, you're not making CONTACTS, but you ARE
> >> > soliciting contacts through a repeater.)
> >> >
> >> > All this brings right back to 2m (SSB or FM), or 432, or 1296,
> >> > etc., and which one's best.  Maybe we just need better
> >> > PROCEDURES, not a new way.
> >> >
> >> > 73 Donn
> >> > WA2VOI/0
> >> >
> >> > DIGIPEATERS  (this makes the APRS proposal a problem);
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> > [email protected]
> >> > http://mbs.valinet.com/mailman/listinfo/microwave
> >>
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> >
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